Mapping Negligence

I took a project with DOT and all the coordinate pairs had been copied from AutoCAD with X changed to north and Y changed to east. I figured out what they had done but not before I spent some time staking from the data. Sheesh!

Working with ROW sheets is my least favorite part of surveying.  With the stuff I've worked with, over 19 sheets I would expect potentially hundreds of feet of misclosure.  Sounds like a good idea to perpetuate the theoretical notion of where the monuments were, even better to replace them after destroying them.  I know its just not done but it still gets under my skin.

Posted by: @jim-frame

↑

Which means I'm going to have to hand-calculate 19 sheets of complex ROW to connect the ROW to the monuments in the field.

There are no bearing and distance labels on the row linework?

Posted by: @bstrand

↑

Posted by: @jim-frame

↑

Which means I'm going to have to hand-calculate 19 sheets of complex ROW to connect the ROW to the monuments in the field.

There are no bearing and distance labels on the row linework?

I think that's what he's grumbling about. Bearings and distances only, so he has to enter that data from the starting coordinates through 19 sheets to check in to the ending coordinates.

I recently did a 15 sheet railroad survey. It occurred to me that having coordinates on every sheet would be a godsend, or rather a Petesend, to any later surveyors referencing my plan.

Posted by: @peter-lothian

↑

I think that's what he's grumbling about. Bearings and distances only, so he has to enter that data from the starting coordinates through 19 sheets to check in to the ending coordinates.

Hmm.  Coordinates are dead last in the rules of construction though so I don't think I would pay much attention to that.

Do you guys not look for some monuments up and down the street from your client parcel and use those to pop the row into place?

Posted by: @bstrand

↑

Posted by: @peter-lothian

↑

I think that's what he's grumbling about. Bearings and distances only, so he has to enter that data from the starting coordinates through 19 sheets to check in to the ending coordinates.

Hmm.  Coordinates are dead last in the rules of construction though so I don't think I would pay much attention to that.

Do you guys not look for some monuments up and down the street from your client parcel and use those to pop the row into place?

Not talking about coordinates as the sole source of location information. Using them to supplement and improve convenience. A little measure of redundancy.

Posted by: @jim-frame

↑

Would it really have been too much trouble to throw a ROW coordinate or two on each sheet?  Sheesh!

I recently had an instance of a pre-construction survey for a road improvement project where control coordinates were given, a centerline by bearing and distance was given, and station/offset relative to said centerline of found monuments was given. But nowhere was there any relationship between the control and the centerline. By the time the survey was recorded nearly all the monuments referenced had been destroyed by construction. Nevertheless, the survey met statutory standards.     

@norman-oklahoma I was trying to follow a set of 2013 highway plans similar to that a few months ago.

The plans show a "control line" with a disclaimer that says (control line is not the centerline of the right of way).  The control line has stationing, bearings and distances, and offsets to control points set along the corridor as well as to new improvements.

In a lighter linetype there are property lines and existing street improvements but no dimensions or offsets from any of that stuff to the new improvements, control points, or this control line.  Seemed clear they wanted to redo the street without doing any boundary work whatsoever.

I called the highway department surveyor to ask him if they normally do substantial highway work without doing any boundary work and it was funny hearing the question get evaded...

If they are doing street improvements that are wholly within the right of way, why go the extra expense of boundary work? Something along the line of a 100' right of way and redoing the street that sits in the +- middle 50' of the right of way. If they wanted to put in a new street along my block, why should they do boundary work when they are not going beyond the existing curb? The existing curb being 10' inside the right of way.

For years I've complained to our local government that when they do one of their capital project road upgrades, what's left is a beautiful road and drainage slopes and every property corner along the route gone. Typically what happens is an engineering firm will set some horizontal and vertical control and tie in a handful of controlling corners along the route and publish those on their plans Survey Control Sheet. The winning low bidder construction contractor will bring in their own sub construction surveyor and they are suppose to verify that what corners were tied are still in place when they're done, but there's no enforcement so it gets blown off. It's usually a year or more before anyone discovered every corner along the route is gone but by then everyone's been paid and gone home. It's horrible, section corners, quarter corners, everything wiped clean. Now I'm on the inside trying to get them to change their ways, but the level of indifference is staggering. I'm hoping that I can convince them to at least record the Survey Control Sheet as a Record of Survey so there will at a minimum be a record of where corners were at one time. The last one I looked at, 28 monuments of record potentially affected and only 5 were tied and once the project is complete, the ties to those five will not be found anywhere in the public record. This has been going on for years.

Posted by: @lurker

↑

If they are doing street improvements that are wholly within the right of way, why go the extra expense of boundary work? Something along the line of a 100' right of way and redoing the street that sits in the +- middle 50' of the right of way. If they wanted to put in a new street along my block, why should they do boundary work when they are not going beyond the existing curb? The existing curb being 10' inside the right of way.

Kinda hard to know if the street really is centered in the ROW without some boundary survey at least.  I have run into some where they pushed it to one side or the other for whatever reason or vacated portions of it and deeded it to adjacent owners.

Posted by: @lurker

↑

If they are doing street improvements that are wholly within the right of way, why go the extra expense of boundary work?

How do they know they're within the right of way without doing any boundary work?  That's my entire point.

People build stuff without having a survey done all the time, but it would be nice if someone, the government for example, set an example of the right way to do things...

DOT Record of Surveys are awesome. They should have control, coordinates, monumentation found, ect. 

The ROS in question -- filed in 2008 -- shows 5 monuments set on the ROW in the vicinity of my project.  So far I've not been able to find a single one.  I haven't given up yet, but I'm fearful that the subsequent improvement project took them all out.

Posted by: @williwaw

↑

For years I've complained to our local government that when they do one of their capital project road upgrades, what's left is a beautiful road and drainage slopes and every property corner along the route gone. Typically what happens is an engineering firm will set some horizontal and vertical control and tie in a handful of controlling corners along the route and publish those on their plans Survey Control Sheet. The winning low bidder construction contractor will bring in their own sub construction surveyor and they are suppose to verify that what corners were tied are still in place when they're done, but there's no enforcement so it gets blown off. It's usually a year or more before anyone discovered every corner along the route is gone but by then everyone's been paid and gone home. It's horrible, section corners, quarter corners, everything wiped clean. Now I'm on the inside trying to get them to change their ways, but the level of indifference is staggering. I'm hoping that I can convince them to at least record the Survey Control Sheet as a Record of Survey so there will at a minimum be a record of where corners were at one time. The last one I looked at, 28 monuments of record potentially affected and only 5 were tied and once the project is complete, the ties to those five will not be found anywhere in the public record. This has been going on for years.

"What is the problem?  The GIS shows the property lines, and the computer can be set to any degree of precision you need.  no one has ever complained, the way we do it works. Just go with it!"

Unfortunately, some of the "powers that be" think that way, and you will have a hard time with your battle to change the way we have been doing things.  Good luck!

@ken-salzmann I become more cynical by the day. I seem to vaguely recall something about my license entailing some kind of responsibility for protecting the public, so it's a bit painful to watch public money spent making property boundaries ambiguous, but on the upside they did save a few bucks and I have job security!

In Oregon, pre-construction surveys are required by state statutes for public projects.  Post construction survey are required to set any monuments destroyed that are not within the right-of-way.  It works well for road projects but unfortunately someone forgot to mention this to all of project managers frantically building ADA ramps across the state.  And I'm not talking about a small number of ramps.  Hell, they are even putting them on the rural roundabouts outside of the small town I live in.  I'm not sure how some gets to a ramp a couple of miles along narrow country roads from the nearest sidewalk but that is another story.

2008 is way too new to be having an unconnected ROS to try and cobble together. I was thinking it was some 1970's era mapping.

The vast majority of new ROW purchases for the DOT are now ADA ramps. 

Posted by: @john-putnam

↑

.  And I'm not talking about a small number of ramps.  Hell, they are even putting them on the rural roundabouts outside of the small town I live in.  I'm not sure how some gets to a ramp a couple of miles along narrow country roads from the nearest sidewalk but that is another story.

As long as my firm is yearly doing $800K+ of ramp survey and design... God bless ADA compliance consent decrees