I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion is on those who hold a license in both engineering and land surveying. I had a surveying professor who absolutely hated the idea, but he was more into geodesy than boundary surveys. On the other hand (and another university), my civil engineering professors were for it, enough to push to keep surveying as a minor in our CE program.
Is someone with a dual license good or bad for career/company/everyone?
Of the few dual license holders I've been around for any length of time, an observation: I have noticed that they don't have the "surveyors are a necessary evil" or that surveyors are "second class professionals" attitude I get from most PE's. At least they know what surveying entails.
My thoughts as a single license holder is that they must be more smarter than me, at least in book learning.
They seem to have a bigger grasp on the big picture but anybody will occasionally lose sight of the big picture.
It varies by person.
I've seen Civil Engineers (especially pre-82 in California) who seem to view Surveying as a side technical activity which is a useful way to make a quick buck.
Others are very competent and knowledgeable Surveyors, and not just at operating the trig functions on their HP48.
I wouldn't make a generalization either way, it varies by the person.
I've worked with a few. As with all groups there are very good, very bad and in between.
My opinion is most Surveyors should have a general knowledge of any Engineering fields they intend to support. Likewise, Engineers should have the basics of what we do as it relates to them. Neither should be granted a license in the other without earning it.
Only one dual license holder I've met can approach a boundary survey with the proper attitude of a surveyor.
All the others, long list, see surveyors as labor unfit to be paid $50k a year.
I've never met a PE that actually took a surveyor's exam.
0.02
I work for one. He was a licensed surveyor for 15 years before he got his engineers license. His day to day duties (when he's not performing management tasks) are surveying related.
All the folks I've met seem to be either more of one than the other. They're either a surveyor that happens to also be an engineer, or an engineer that picked up his surveying license. Seems as though one or the other attains dominance in a personality.
Just from a personal observation I've noticed some people that their "engineering analyticals" side of their brain keeps their "keep digging until you find it" side of their brain from running with. I've also known dual registrants that had no trouble at all swapping hats, but I still think it's an "either or" scenario.
This excludes all of the engineers that were awarded surveyor's status in 1969 when we began licensure...they're (a) a world all their own, and (b) pretty much all gone anyway.
Sabre970, post: 322990, member: 7481 wrote: I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion is on those who hold a license in both engineering and land surveying. I had a surveying professor who absolutely hated the idea, but he was more into geodesy than boundary surveys. On the other hand (and another university), my civil engineering professors were for it, enough to push to keep surveying as a minor in our CE program.
Is someone with a dual license good or bad for career/company/everyone?
There are good one's and bad ones. In my state there were a number of PE's who were granted LS licenses without examination in the 1980's due to a lawsuit (or threat of one) against our Board. They filled out an application and sent it in with $75 and became licensed. We call these these folks "grandfathered." Some of them are smart enough to know they are not capable of being surveyors and some are not. Most of those who actually took an exam in both disciplines seem pretty well qualified (but there are a few exceptions)!
I didn't discover surveying until I was in the undergrad civil engineering program at Rutgers and got an internship with a local surveying/engineering firm. They put me on a survey crew and I decided that was what I wanted to do.
About a year and half later I finished my engineering degree, passed the FE, and registered for surveying classes at NJIT. Three years later I took the FS and then the PS 6 months after that.
Then I took the PE just because I could and passed it. I would say I am 90% surveyor and 10% engineer. It does give me some room to get into a little bit of engineering, or to go just outside of what someone with only the PLS license can do in my state. I don't really get into any heavy-duty engineering though. If the stuff gets too complicated or out of my area of expertise I just tell the client to get someone else to do that part.
Boiler Up!
Brad, PLS(first), PE
The most wonderful people in the world!
We need more of them!
Not biased or anything. Just stating the facts. There is nothing wrong with being ambi-cerebral. Using both sides of the brain allows one to be stronger over all.
Some of us are downright warm and fuzzy critters. Well..........fuzzy anyway.
Edit: Add in my Real Estate Salespersons license and I must be tri-cerebral or something. Probably the "or something".
Sabre970, post: 322990, member: 7481 wrote: I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion is on those who hold a license in both engineering and land surveying....
In Oregon, prior to the late '70s, both engineers as well as land surveyors could do boundary surveying. At that time the law was changed that only PLS's could do boundaries, but any PE then registered could be "grandfathered" a PLS license for the asking. Those that did were, almost universally, very poor at the job. As Dave said, they treated boundary surveying as strictly a measurement effort. Their products are run out deeds or plat dimensions. At best.
With the passage of years those "grandfathered" guys have now retired. I can't think of any still around. There may be a few.
Today, outside of the Portland Metro area, there are some dual registrants, principally in the Forestry field, that do good work on the rural woodland tracts they survey. But in the urban areas PEs make more money Engineering than the best of PLSs make Surveying. So, IMO, a PE who gets into surveying does so as an aside. Not his/her primary avocation. It usually shows. Not saying it can't be done well but it often isn't.
It is a requirement, by law, that at least one member of the Oregon State Board be a dual registrant. I've known a few PEs who picked up a PLS based on some field experience early in their careers but never do any surveying. I don't know of any PLSs who subsequently got a PE and continued surveying in any serious way.
Sabre970, post: 322990, member: 7481 wrote: I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion is on those who hold a license in both engineering and land surveying. I had a surveying professor who absolutely hated the idea, but he was more into geodesy than boundary surveys. On the other hand (and another university), my civil engineering professors were for it, enough to push to keep surveying as a minor in our CE program.
Is someone with a dual license good or bad for career/company/everyone?
As a dual licensee I would ask another question. If you are going to be working with/for an engineer would prefer one who is also a surveyor or one who is relatively ignorant of what you do?
I am and always will be a Land Surveyor first who became an engineer to further business opportunities. LS 29 years, PE 23 years.
Andy
From DownUnder I appreciate those that have a "dual qualification" can be useful.
They have some idea about what they are requesting and the start of a job doesn't need so much interrogation to decipher just what they need for them to do their job.
Also they can appreciate complexities that come in some surveys.
On other hand, dual qualification can also be exasperating, as those experts in both fields can be quite a pain and show their limited skills in surveying.
Planners can be so qualified.
An example is one who had also studied (but not continued in) geomorphology, and challenged my geomorphologist, PHD and all.
That didn't go down to well with the real expert in that area.
Two licenses never works out. You have to pick one...hunting or marriage.
Brad Ott, post: 323046, member: 197 wrote: Boiler Up!
Brad, PLS(first), PE
Hammer down!
Norman Oklahoma, post: 323055, member: 9981 wrote: In Oregon, prior to the late '70s, both engineers as well as land surveyors could do boundary surveying.
When doing research and I see an LS stamp issued in 1978 (the cut off year Mark refers to when any PE could grandfather in as an LS or forever hold his peace), I'm always wary. Some real surveyors were minted that year, but mostly the hundreds of PEs threw in on this once in a lifetime opportunity had no survey experience at all.
I got to see firsthand how bad this could go when I worked a summer (1984) for a grandfathered PE who I call "Schmoe". He'd been laid off from a sand and gravel co. so he decided to finally utilize that unblemished PLS ticket and do some USFS cadastral contracting. Schmoe may have been a great estimator and project manager for paving contracts, but he didn't have sense enough to pour plumb bobs our of a boot in the surveying arena.
It did not go well.
I've worked for two dual licensed people over the years, First was one that just checked a box on the application to get he PLS when he got he's engineering license years ago, very good engineer, but not much of a surveyor.
The other got his engineering license, then years later got his PLS. He was one of the best surveyors I've ever known.
Just like with single licensees, there are some good and some bad. Most of the duals that I've known, though, are PE's first, and like many PE's, surveying becomes just a necessary evil.
