Deregulation

I have a hard time finding a response that is apolitical. I'll leave it 'I strongly agree'. Get involved...

While I agree, this is a major deal, who would you suggest is better to defend state laws than the state's attorney?  There might be an opportunity for the NSPS to file an amicus curiae brief but it is not like I can walk into SCOTUS and provide testimony.

This sucks.

This may not be the hill to die on for surveyors. Isn't there a board that regulates photogrammetry?

This person isn't offering boundary information, at least I gather that from the one document I reviewed. 

Location information? 

@mightymoe 

I feel th ebigger issue is that we as a profession got dragged into a 1st amendment legal battle, and free speech isn't unregulated, its a money grab by the people that just dont want to pay for surveying, say the losers of the 418 million dollar anti trust law suit earlier this year( not political Wendell, just the facts..... 😉 ) and their lawyers etc want to get retribution on the professional community that essentially "holds them back at every turn" because a survey should only cost about 3-500 dollars.  Yeah screw that guy and his drones.  Its not free speech, its assimilation of the professional opinion based public trust that has been in place and licensed since nearly 100 years ago, after that great dam debacle St Francis Dam, where a non engineer was in charge of the project and whoa baby look at what happened.  Yeah, we as a profession need to be highly aware of the fact lawyers, insurance comapnies, realtors, title companies etc, only use us because they havent figured out YET how to get rid of us.  This is a bellwether situation that needs all hands on deck, and that means read up and get educated on the movement to deregulate and get rid of land surveyors, all the while allowing drone pilots and GISP make the case that sureying is antiquated and no longer needed.  ( mic drop) Damn its been a few minutes since ive been here, guess im all fired up with the new oild site, and getting the cob webs out now....

I did some more reading and I see he was offering files for topographic information to allow construction companies to monitor changes during projects. Basically volume control. Yeah, that's stepping over the line. Seems he never got paid for any work, doesn't know how to produce surfaces, but wants to learn to do it, how in the heck is this at the SC?

I can easily see huge problems with volume payments if any construction company hires this guy. Guess how that would work out. 

Also, I've worked with photogrammetry companies since the late 1970's. As far as I know they weren't necessarily licensed surveyors or engineers, isn't there some board that does photogrammetry,,,,ASPRS? Or is this state by state?

As far as free speech, no one is stopping him from that, boards only will step in to stop offering work for pay without the correct credentials.  

@mightymoe 

In Oregon, OSBEELS regulates photogrammetrists.  Other than that most I know are certified by ASPRS.  I can not think of any firms that do not have licensed surveyors, either inhouse or contracted, provide photo control.

As for SCOTUS, I think the consequences of allowing 'conduct' to be equated to 'speech' will have a profound effect on more than the professional design community.

Thank you for posting about this.  I've only skimmed through the appeals decision for the Ca case.  It's reassuring to get the gist of that decision, but bewildering that the SC even took it up.  Relative to many cases they decline to hear, it seems almost trivially clear cut.  But also what many of us have feared for a couple decades - that the bright shiny objects of GIS, aerial photogrammetry, and GPS would make legitimate boundary survey look "old-fashioned" and deserving of obsolescence.    Of course they are in fact mutually compatible and can enhance the work of boundary survey, but that is not widely understood.  I'm sure everyone has heard the question, "Why can't you guys just use GPS to locate boundaries now?  Should be easy."

Well, when someone can verbally identify as a toaster or a person of the opposite sex then it seems hardly a stretch for some unlicensed dork to say he's a surveyor.  Free speech indeed!

What a clown show. 🙄 

All the paperwork filed so far with the Supreme Court has to do with petitioning for a writ of certiorari. If the Supreme Court issues that writ, it means they'll hear the case. But they haven't done so yet.

The lower court memorandum in the Crownholm case says that regulating someone's actions is not the same as restricting their free speech, and gives a lot of examples of why that's so.

Also not sure why this is going to SC but, I am affected by this current practice. I know the deliverable is an an aerial map, volume study, under lay of design CAD, etc....and not Lidar produced (which is probably fine, but not the the same level of accuracy that is being sold). I have heard that the cost of this is like 10X less than a licensed surveyor. My clients who have used him don't understand he probably doesn't have E&O or anything else to drive up cost or regulations to answer to, which they acknowledge but the price is so low they take the risk. That all said, there is a ton of unlicensed drone services in the state providing this service and have websites noting it. Just like there is a huge number of unlicensed modelers offering services in the state at huge discount prices but no regulation. Honestly if boards don't get with the times and deal with this instead of chasing people who forgot a north arrow, there really is no point in having a board.

AMEN

Posted by: @terminus-nc

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chasing people who forgot a north arrow,

Earlier in my career I was surprised at how little engineers, architects, GISPs, and contractors knew about what I considered to be basic blunder detection.  I'd love to see our state societies hammer home the fact that surveyors are the only ones that seem concerned with ground truthing. 

Imagine being party to the following event:

That little slab of concrete that appears on the aerial view happens to be the well cover above a 10-foot diameter by 80-foot deep hand- dug well.  That spot happens to be where the designer intends to place a support column.  Reality hits when the dirt contractor pushes the well cover away.  Oops!  Who gets to pay for that surprise?

Very similar thing occurred on a simple motel job where I was pounding dirt to evaluate compaction.  The well happened to fall at one main corner of the motel.  Thankfully, our only function was compaction testing of the fill process of the general low areas.  Gleefully observed the consternation that arose over the discovery of the well.  That was in 1979.

@terminus-nc The majority of Boards have no jurisdiction over unlicensed practice. They cannot 'get with the program' as they have no statutory program to get with.

Years ago our State had problems with discipline. Cases were brought where no real violation existed. Egregious cases of gross fraud and incompetence were lost. The prosecutor was offering consent agreements that made no sense. Our Board took notice and sought legislative changes. One of those changes was bringing on a full-time Deputy Director for Surveying. They also hired a Prosecutor with administrative law experience.

Taking the deputy position was the worst financial decision I've ever made, but it was the most rewarding part of my career. Somebody forgets a North Arrow? Call them and let them know. No docket, no case, done. Over a three year period we prosecuted some bad actors, and helped many with retirement plans.

When the deregulation train hit, it was devastating. 47 agencies piled into one. Nearly every subject matter expert sand-boxed, demoted, or dismissed. Board powers stripped, investigations halted, and licensing ground to a halt. Four years on we are seeing minor relief, but the damage is done. We are no longer allowed to test applicants on knowledge of State law. Complaints go into a black hole and rarely come before the Board. Even the new executive leadership recognizes this system is unworkable. I cannot post the words they use to describe thier own 'agency'.

I've seen this process in two of the Stares I hold licenses in. It has lowered the standard of care and harmed the public. We are back to the pre-78 days where anything goes. Deed stakers, mathemagicians, and the unlicensed are free to do as they wish. It isn't the fault of our Boards. They are Executive Agencies taking direction from Governors within the confines of powers granted by legislatures.