I'm looking for some insight on railroad surveys. I started on this project about 3/4 of the way through. Parts of the RR R/W are the boundary of a large property owned by a mining company. The EXISTING RR C/L was surveyed before I joined. I have been tasked with producing the R/W of the RR and I am using the valuation and R/W plans that are on the county website. I have drafted the centerline of the RR per plan, however, what do I do about the R/W? From what I've researched RR R/W are seldom spiral definitions, rather simple curves. I used The Railroad Taper by Lee Perkins to educate myself on how to draw the spirals, and 30-ft chords for the C removed link removed link Upon deed research, I found that the legal descriptions of parcels adjacent to the RR R/W had been described as arcs or curves with a given radius. Now, my next question is do I use the LOCATED C/L of tracks, or the plan C/L of the tracks? And will a 100+ y/o track move that much from the original location?
Any input would be appreciated, trying to close out this project and this is one of the last parts.
-E
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Normally RR ROW's are simple curves (not always), val maps being tax maps are more interested in the valuation of the RR infrastructure and show the tracks. They are focused on the iron and the simple curve of the ROW isn't as much of a concern. Since deeds along the ROW describe simple curves I might defer to them. I would also contact the Railroad to get maps from them and not so much from the county site (it's possible you would need to research the national archives to get the actual original maps). The track tangents may be all that's available, but since you have descriptions along the ROW you need to look for those monuments, also there may be RR monuments at the PC. I've found a number of them, they are vertical rails and they always seem to resolve many questions about ROW location.
Now, my next question is do I use the LOCATED C/L of tracks, or the plan C/L of the tracks?
I don't know if I'd concern myself so much with the location of the tracks, at least early on. I think I'd look for monuments and lines of occupation from the adjoiners and see if that fits the record right of way width. If the tracks happen to land in the middle of what is being occupied then that gives you some confidence about the location of the right of way, eh?
As far as spirals, and after consulting with the various other surveyors, the way I've been handling them is to list the record spiral data along with my measured chord and chord length. 🤷♂️
Start with deeds, then add the actions of the owners. Simple, right?
The language of the deeds may call for the asbuilt location of the tracks, a certain set of plans, or any number of other things. That tells you where to look. The crew needs to be experienced and sharp. Monuments may exist on the center or right of way. Fences must be located with detail. Any fixed objects with reasonably accurate station and offset should be picked up also.
I have done several where the r-o-w does indeed follow the spiral. It's not the impossible task many say it is. Worst case call it a specific offset to the center line spiral and give the r-o-w chord. That beats faking a simple curve if everything says it's a spiral.
Start with deeds, then add the actions of the owners. Simple, right?
The language of the deeds may call for the asbuilt location of the tracks, a certain set of plans, or any number of other things. That tells you where to look. The crew needs to be experienced and sharp. Monuments may exist on the center or right of way. Fences must be located with detail. Any fixed objects with reasonably accurate station and offset should be picked up also.
I have done several where the r-o-w does indeed follow the spiral. It's not the impossible task many say it is. Worst case call it a specific offset to the center line spiral and give the r-o-w chord. That beats faking a simple curve if everything says it's a spiral.
In my neck of the woods the railroad was granted the ROW immediately after the survey alignment MAPS were filed with the government. The rails themselves were usually laid later. Therefor, I believe that the map location controls the ROW. Additionally, the rails move so they are not trustworthy. If a find fences that I believe were constructed by the Railway Company, I am hard-pressed not to accept them, as they are monuments.
@jim-in-az A few thoughts...
The placing of monuments or improvements by the railroad or adjoiners is an expression of the intent of the deed (grant). There is no reason to elevate the acts of one owner over the other simply because they are a railroad. I would be more concerned with when and how a fence was placed than who built it.
When I retrace RR r-o-w I locate anything with a station and offset on the plans. The more permanent and well-defined the structure the better. I often use the structures and tracks to generate my first cut r-o-w then search diligently at geometry points. I rarely find a significant difference between monuments and tracks.
Thank you all for your insightful replies. As you can tell I am not an RLS lol. Working on getting my LSIT, and boss man is on vacay so trying to make as much progress as possible for him. This definitely feels like a jigsaw puzzle and I need to get the adjoiner's legal desc. to make sure it makes sense. Finding railroad survey information online has been difficult. These tracks were built in 1909, roughly, as an Act of Congress. Reading through the history, and how they were allowed to take raw material nearby as needed to build the tracks, has been interesting to learn. Also learning that the Interstate Commerce Commission is no longer was a bummer, especially since some legals say "LOT 20 ICC"...
@jim-in-az A few thoughts...
The placing of monuments or improvements by the railroad or adjoiners is an expression of the intent of the deed (grant). There is no reason to elevate the acts of one owner over the other simply because they are a railroad. I would be more concerned with when and how a fence was placed than who built it.
When I retrace RR r-o-w I locate anything with a station and offset on the plans. The more permanent and well-defined the structure the better. I often use the structures and tracks to generate my first cut r-o-w then search diligently at geometry points. I rarely find a significant difference between monuments and tracks.
I would do that at times with state highway r/w. I would get the construction drawings where there were significant structures build, locate those and rotate/translate my computed baseline onto those points.
@thebionicman old crossings bridges culverts head walls signs post are also things that will sometimes have stationing and those things can help a lot along with all the owners monuments corners. If you can get clearance on the track. In pc PT there are these nails also where a spiral in and out and the elevation change. These nails will be stamped big head in the cross ties. They have a unique identifier number these mean things and are usually set at a called out station they don’t say they set this nail thing. But if you can find them and see them in the construction or Val maps they help tremendously in the resolving everything. As someone stated before the cl of tracks and cl or ROW may not be equal. Some places had soundtracks and now are only a single track. Make sure to go through all the safety requirements as if you get caught in the ROW or on a track the rail road does not take that likely. I have a friend who worked for years surveying for the railroad. Pm me and I can get yall connected he is a PLS in several states and is a great source of information.
1909 is a bit later than some. Was this prior to patents?
If you're in a PLSS state you can look up the creation of the ROW in the Historical Index on the GLOBLM records site. At least you have the actual date, it can be different than some other records. If you try and track the creation dates locally many resources state it was 1894, but the HE shows 1890 and 1891.
If it was before patents, then the RR existed in whatever 40 or 80 was patented and probably those RR ROW's weren't even mentioned on the patent (at least that's what I've seen). If this was after patents or in a state that's not PLSS then there should be a deed for the creation.
My experience is that spirals show up in RR ROWs later. A bunch of them during mining expansion from the mid-century times in my area, older ROW's were simple curves (as they should be). 1909 may have been an early spiral ROW version. Tangents will lead you to the PI which will fit for simple or spiral curves, from there you can search for PC monuments and find out if property lines and monuments fit. It's a puzzle, all information needs to be looked at. A 1909 ROW was most likely done true north, pay close attention to that.
@thebionicman old crossings bridges culverts head walls signs post are also things that will sometimes have stationing and those things can help a lot along with all the owners monuments corners. If you can get clearance on the track. In pc PT there are these nails also where a spiral in and out and the elevation change. These nails will be stamped big head in the cross ties. They have a unique identifier number these mean things and are usually set at a called out station they don’t say they set this nail thing. But if you can find them and see them in the construction or Val maps they help tremendously in the resolving everything. As someone stated before the cl of tracks and cl or ROW may not be equal. Some places had soundtracks and now are only a single track. Make sure to go through all the safety requirements as if you get caught in the ROW or on a track the rail road does not take that likely. I have a friend who worked for years surveying for the railroad. Pm me and I can get yall connected he is a PLS in several states and is a great source of information.
sorry those nail things are for the super elevation each number represents a slope but they usually have a stationing. I had a cheat cheat but can’t find it.
I've had pretty good luck on surveying railroad r.o.w on the tangent. Fortunately in the flatness of the part of west Texas I was working, there aren't too many curves. I think I took shots on 5-6 miles of track and when I did a least squares analysis, most of the points were within a tenth of a foot. Those crews are pretty good about putting the rails back in the same place and keeping things straight and level. They also have to respect the culverts, bridges and other accessories that don't move when the rails get worked over.
The one time I had a curve near Colorado City (Tx), the fence was not matching geometry but I was able to make it work. Prove me wrong. LOL
I think it's out 0.04000 😉
One railroad that sliced across my home county had a description obviously written prior to the construction of the track. One section of ROW across the NW quarter of the section was to end a certain distance south of the NW section corner. The track was laid out about 200 feet further south. I hate to think how far it might be off the section to the west. We nailded down all significant structures plus fencing to arrive at what truly happened.
Also with the Val Maps there is an associated "Land Schedule" These will list the Deed Book and Page on how the right-of-way was obtained for each tract on the Val Map. Sometimes they are on the Val Map but if not the railroad real estate department will usually give email them to you. Sometimes they just send a spreadsheet. Can you send me those links you posted that were removed, I would like to check them out.
We also locate nail/tag "ST" and "TS" in RR centerline if found. "Spiral to the Tangent" and "Tangent to the Spiral" as I was taught.
We also locate nail/tag "ST" and "TS" in RR centerline if found.
That's going to fall in the ballast at the center of the track, more often than not between ties. What a colossal PITA to set rods that has to be. And more than a little dangerous. What if a train comes along when you've got the rod partially driven? Plus, I doubt that the RR appreciates you luring future surveyors onto the tracks. I'm all for monumenting the spirals, but not like that.
@norman-oklahoma He's not setting anything. Not driving anything that could be sticking up if a train comes. He's just recovering evidence.