1-800 Dig Rite - Gas line hit

If your control monuments are more than a foot long that is a justification to ask for markings.

Remember when calling for a locate... You are never doing a design survey, you are doing soil borings-across the ENTIRE property. It gets located every time.

811 / Miss Utility is about liability ...not design

I can't say this is certain for every location, but knowing what I know about the quality of this sort of "utility locating" service where I work it's damn near professional malpractice to show them on a plan and imply that they are sufficiently thorough and accurate for design.

Incomplete/inaccurate information is worse than no information at all; if I have a design client that wants subsurface utilities shown by using geophysical techniques it's either performed by a firm using the ASCE Standard Guideline for the Collection and Depiction of Existing Subsurface Utility Data and under the direct responsible charge of a licensed professional or it's not going on my plans.

Our design tickets do not automatically get marked, you have to wait a week and request it. If all else fails I check the box 'excavator' box when it asks what type of equipment I am using. Always tempted to check the 'blasting' box.

I know the gas folks around here are out surveying their lines for situations like the one in the article. Deep tillage equipment and the farm tillage exemption to 15 inches keeps them on their toes.

Our designs always require a locate at the time of construction for all the reasons Mr. Fleming lists.

Steve

Oregon has a 10 day wait period for pre-design but anything deeper than 12" is considered excavation. If I need to push the issue I will say that I am setting random rods at 24" and performing hand excavation. My experience in CA is that they will not mark for pre-design at all and the times I have gone the hand excavation route the locators have threatened me with legal actions. Now I let the client call for CA locates or pay for a private locate firm. The problem I'm finding with the private guys is that they on usually not willing to mark in the public right-of-way.

I manage the NJ One Call program for a bi-state agency for several large facilities.
Here you must include the excavator on your request to get a mark out. I do between 600-800 per year for the facility owned utilities.
If you want design SUE you need to hire a firm for that work.
The reason the law changed was due to the utility owners doing mark outs for design. Certainly not their function and it became quite costly.
As stated above, relying on a one call mark out for your plans is risky and dangerous.
That being said, NJ law states that if you penetrate the ground more than 6 inches you require a mark out.
Plan ahead when excavating.

In WI we only have to wait 3 days for the locate to be done and it was recently changed that "survey" work now requires all utilities to be marked. Since this change and we have the ability to now go online and request a specific area with a GIS type program we rarely have a problem with getting utilities marked. It also helps to have the phone numbers of local utility supervisors to get plans when needed. I also put a disclaimer on all topo surveys that the location of shown underground utilities are located to within a certain accuracy and field excavation is required to determine exact location. Have yet to run into a problem with it yet.

Around here, 811 will not locate for design. We just hire a private locating company to provide the locates. Usually the water or sewer division will do locates if you ask kindly. A good engineering company will pothole most things before final design to verify the survey info. I've seen a few jobs that were not potholled. Lots of overrun and resesign.

Here in AZ they will only mark for Registered Contractors with an excavation license - dumb as hell!

John Putnam, post: 422434, member: 1188 wrote: The problem I'm finding with the private guys is that they on usually not willing to mark in the public right-of-way.

Ditto here in Indiana. Frustration.

Jim in AZ, post: 422441, member: 249 wrote: Here in AZ they will only mark for Registered Contractors with an excavation license - dumb as hell!

We don't have "excavation licenses" in Oklahoma. I'm a "Registered Contractor" with our 811 "Okie-Locate" System...but they still don't make it out there half the time. I agree it's a mess.

John Putnam, post: 422434, member: 1188 wrote: Oregon has a 10 day wait period for pre-design...

We are kind of spoiled in Oregon. One-call marks with minimal complaint, they just ask for a little time. SW Washington is getting better about it, too.

I found that calling for locates in OK was pretty much a waste of time. The only thing I ever got out of it was a Locate Request Ticket Number to put on my topo map. CYA.

That's why I tell my clients it is their job to have the lines marked. If locating the lines is so important then they can hop to it and get it done.

Bruce Small, post: 422453, member: 1201 wrote: That's why I tell my clients it is their job to have the lines marked. If locating the lines is so important then they can hop to it and get it done.

I agree wholeheartedly. But I would like to make a point concerning the use of our survey data for design purposes and the chance of eventual conflict between excavation and buried utilities. Whether we like it or not (or whether it's proper or not) others use our data in varying fashions to design construction projects.

Another point I would like to make is that all utilities are not created equal. (Nearly) All storm and sanitary sewers have enough visible appurtenances to verify their locations (and depths generally) within a reasonable tolerance. Water distribution systems aren't generally that difficult either. Communication systems, while not particularly deadly when disturbed, can become an expensive mistake in a flash. That leaves us with electrical and various hydrocarbon transportation and distribution systems as the main culprit in excavation conflict causalities.

If I locate (and subsequently show on a survey) gas line markers on opposing boundary sides of a property survey I darn sure don't draw a 'line of assumption' between them. If there is an easement, I do show that. And if someone earning minimum wage painted or flagged a route between them; I may show that also, but labeled as "paint marks" or "flags" by others. I avoid any implication that I derived a location when I actually did not.

We know design personnel are detached from the actual site and may depend on our line work, but we have to make it perfectly clear that actual locations and depths is the responsibility of others. I would rather simply state on a survey "gas line located by others on west side of street" than to draw an erroneous line and mislead folks.

I'm amazed with all the technology available nowadays that dangerous buried facilities locations cannot be determined, recorded and retrieved. I liken it to a Child Day Care owner that is willing to admit there's a loaded gun somewhere in the nursery, but they can't remember exactly where...so let's just note: last seen in kitchen drawer. That should absolve them of any culpability should an accident occur....;)

Don't show anything on your drawing you don't know for sure is there....and like Mark said., "CYA".

paden cash, post: 422459, member: 20 wrote: I'm amazed with all the technology available nowadays that dangerous buried facilities locations cannot be determined, recorded and retrieved. I liken it to a Child Day Care owner that is willing to admit there's a loaded gun somewhere in the nursery, but they can't remember exactly where...so let's just note: last seen in kitchen drawer. That should absolve them of any culpability should an accident occur....;)

Don't show anything on your drawing you don't know for sure is there....and like Mark said., "CYA".

That is so well put! I wish I wish I could blast this to "811" whoever they are.

Have you thought about getting OQ'ed (Veriforce or OQSG) and locating them yourself? It's not difficult but does take some time to understand what the locator's telling you. Most surveyors have the attention to detail to do it right or not continue. Most one-call locators don't care if it's right as long as they get their markings on the ground.

ssorcbor, post: 422462, member: 1963 wrote: Have you thought about getting OQ'ed (Veriforce or OQSG) and locating them yourself? It's not difficult but does take some time to understand what the locator's telling you. Most surveyors have the attention to detail to do it right or not continue. Most one-call locators don't care if it's right as long as they get their markings on the ground.

I am afraid if I mark it and show it, that 100% liability. No thanks, I'll hire a SUE professional for that.

Typically it takes 2 weeks to get locates for a design ticket. In Virginia, ANY penetration of the ground surface is considered excavation. The state society has tried on a few occasions to get exemptions for surveyors but it is always a no go.

There is a large cross-country pipeline on one of my farms. It enters about 150 feet north of the southwest corner and exits about 400 feet east of that southwest corner. Recently I was doing some terrace and waterway repairs so had all utilities marked. That's when I discovered that I had been making a very bad assumption. The entry from the west is where the line goes under a railroad that is running almost perfectly north to south. They made it run perpendicular to the railroad to minimize the length under that right-of-way. At a point about 250 feet into my property, the line makes approximately a 45 degree turn to run to the southeast. I had assumed it ran straight between the line markers on each property line since it was such a short distance.