New partnership, or Bugger off?

Looks like a NO brainer from your list.

I can only say what I've experienced in my career and other's mileage may vary.

I have several good friends that are professional engineers whom own and operate their own gigs. And even though I've done scads of work for them, I avoid any sort of business arrangement. And that is just because every time I ever got mixed up with an engineer I wound up on the short end of the stick. I have been in business with five engineers and actually been an owner/partner of two engineering firms over the last 35 years. The fact that I was not an engineer always had an adverse effect on my position with those firms.

And like I said, most of these guys were actually friends of mine. I realized now my business relationship with them was similar to the friend we all have or know that keeps attempting a serious relationship with bar dancers. The dancers would always promise to be faithful but in the end would always wind up behaving exactly like they had in the past. A crazy analogy but appropriate.

Engineering projects (and firms) need surveyors a heck of lot more than surveying projects (and firms) need engineers. Tell Mr. Engineer you want to be a partner and your terms are 50% of the gross fees. In other words, split it right down the middle.

Let us know what he says.

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: My (good) employees say no. Could damage moral w/ them.

I don't think that you have your pro/cons in order. Offering higher quality services isn't going to starve out bottom feeding "pin finders".

Your pros are:

• Reduced overall overhead, with an ability to upgrade your office setup through the savings
• Common marketing effort, serving a broader customer base
• Larger pool of employees enables you to offer them better benefits.

Your con is:

• surrendering some of your independence

Be associates and spill work back and forth to test the waters.

Two people usually have a different value of themselves and I have never met an engineer that felt that my time was as valuable as theirs.

It always took proving that fact to them and even then their barriers never dropped in order to form a partnership.

0.02

If you know my story (many here do), you'll understand why I recommend an emphatic NO. After getting screwed 3 times in a row, I'll never enter another partnership. Proof is in the pudding -- my business is now booming more than ever before. Despite how it may look at first, you will never agree on everything and the things you disagree on may be a big deal.

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: Currently I operate my business as sole partner LLC. A couple good employees. We're very busy.
A licensed Civil Engr. wants to start his own design/survey biz. He needs a PLS until he gets his survey lic. I've been approached to partner w/ his new LLC so he's legal and can offer boundary surveying.

You should definitely go for that arrangement as soon as possible. Too many surveyors make the mistake of thinking that engineers are people of normal sensibilities who they would enjoy working with, and apparently you haven't had the corrective experience, yet.

Sign up now so that by the end of this year you will be in a better position to part ways and return to how things were, only wiser about the ways of the world, and with a shorter client list. Nobody ever said that education was cheap.

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: I've been burned by being a 'nice guy' before. Friendship is temporal.
My (good) employees say no. Could damage moral w/ them.

A perspective from afar.
That statement of yours re "burned" would be a concern (for me).
"Nice guys" need to be strong in character and resolve.
Been there, worn the guernsey as they say here.
If a natural instinct leads to that admirable quality then how much more could it get abused in such a relationship?

It seems you have something good going for you in your present setup.
Is it possible to work with this bloke in a different relationship arrangement to see his needs fulfilled until he gets his stated aim of his own licence?
What's your future once that happens? Would your bridges be burnt with current and future clients ?
Could you actually engage in working for them due to some legal agreement in the process of working for this engineer?
Could your current work situation extend to satisfying his needs whilst maintaining your commitments to your clients.

I could see conflict that way too.
If you need and engineer would you be obliged to work with him? I expect yes for the mutual good of both.
But when does your client become 'his' client?
If your engineer performs engineering service for a client of yours that needs an engineer then whose client is it?

Personally I would weigh these options against my own (your) lifestyle and desire for independence (or not) and choice of work and where or whom I (you)work for.
I have that luxury but maybe employment opportunities or not could be different with you.

If your employees are concerned would you be happy with your choice if they parted and you ended up having to employ others that turned out to be rabbits and made life uncomfortable whilst getting the job done?

I have no idea of your situation and so throw in family, partner into the mix.

Whatever decision you make you will need to embrace and move on.
All the best with your choice.

paden cash, post: 420276, member: 20 wrote: Tell Mr. Engineer you want to be a partner and your terms are 50% of the gross fees. In other words, split it right down the middle.

Let us know what he says.

And don't forget the non-compete clause in the agreement.

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: After putting this down Pro/Con, its much clearer.

Therein lies your answer...

When I left the large firm to start my own survey business there were several engineers who made it clear they would love to join me. I had the good sense to say no. I've never regretted that decision.

Moral destitution is not unique to engineers and bad partnerships are just a result of human nature.

"....until he gets his survey lic."

What happens then?

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: Currently I operate my business as sole partner LLC. A couple good employees. We're very busy.
A licensed Civil Engr. wants to start his own design/survey biz. He needs a PLS until he gets his survey lic. I've been approached to partner w/ his new LLC so he's legal and can offer boundary surveying.

Pros:
Good sense of this CE's professionalism.
A new firm that works to better standards (mine!) may starve the substandard pinfinders (unlicensed surveyors) we have here.
More income in reviews of his work.
New LLC to offer design services.
Another professional to trade tech trends with. (ie offer UAV services, GIS...)

Cons:
Essentially creating a new LLC to compete w/ current LLC
Training a new competitor.
More responsibilities- don't need more work. Plenty w/ current LLC.
More liability.
I've been burned by being a 'nice guy' before. Friendship is temporal.
My (good) employees say no. Could damage moral w/ them.

Looking for thoughts on this. Since I work alone, good to get some response from outside my bubble.
After putting this down Pro/Con, its much clearer.

When I was in business in Wyoming, 1973-1988, I never had that problem with the engineers, as they worked for me. Matter of fact, one was my boss when I worked for the Bureau of Reclamation, 1960-1966. He worked for me from 1975-1982 and was a licensed PE&LS. I remember that when he came in the first day, I never even had an engineering project in the works. About mid day I got a call from a local oil company telling me that they needed a heliport designed and the paper work done so that they could land the company helicopter on the grounds of their office complex.

You have the luxury of choice now.
If you were partners, would you still have the luxury of choice?

lanceboyle93101, post: 420272, member: 2061 wrote: A licensed Civil Engr. wants to start his own design/survey biz. He needs a PLS until he gets his survey lic. I've been approached to partner w/ his new LLC so he's legal and can offer boundary surveying.

well, you lost me right there. I know here in Florida, a PE can do survey work incidental to an engineering project. e.g. topo for drainage design.. If that's the case where you are, he wouldn't really need you on board. As others have mentioned... what do you think will happen after "he gets his survey lic."??
He has you, he doesn't need to offer "Boundary Surveying". You can team up on projects just as you might do with any other group of professionals. Why risk teaming up legally to an unknown entity? I'd say no way. You don't need that headache.

just my .02

Been my experience that when something is working for me and I go trying to fix it, I usually end up regretting it. Subcontract work from him if you like, but don't buy a cow for a gallon of milk, unless you're Nate and you have a lot of mouths to feed.
😉
Just me .02'. That and a buck might get you a cup of coffee, at McDonalds.

Thanks for all the good opinions/observations and sharing life experiences. Most my 30+ yrs have been working for larger multi- disciplinary firms, and I do not want to go there.
As I was typing that post it crept upon me what should be done: He offers engineering services, and he can hire us for surveying when needed. Just like the other engrs I sub to here. My GL/PL insurance person has yet to get back to me; still laughing at what her knucklehead client is considering.

If correctly read you post you will still are thinking of keeping two companies. If so I have several observations.
1) In many states you can not be the land surveyor in responsible charge at two firms.
2) I would guess you will be loosing your company's current engineering clients. Why hire the competition? And just because you have two separate firms they will still see you as a competitor.
3) You are setting up a competitor for your survey business. I made the mistake of teaming with a DBE engineering firm on a large construction project. The idea was that we would work with them on this single over the course of several years. This was a teaming situation and not a partnership. After about 3 months in the engineer decided that here green techs new how to run the instrument and were now qualified party chiefs. She promptly cut us out of anymore of the work. I'm not sure that the contractor was very happy about the gig but they were stuck with it, especially since she had a hard time finding a worthwhile PLS to work for her. They needed the DBE points.