I've gotten a few calls lately, where the potential client after hearing the cost for staking a lot has said something like they don't need it that accurate, "just flagging to give me a rough idea of where the line is".
My thought is that there's the same liability with flagging a line as staking a line.?ÿ If someone builds a fence or clears up to flags I set, I'm still on the hook for those lines the same as if I'd staked them.
Granted these are lines way out in the woods of 10+ acre lots, but still
I laugh when I hear this because how exactly does one get "close"??ÿ I mean the equipment that gets it close also gets it right on.?ÿ I remember joking in school that surveyors should tell people "Sure I can give you a rough idea, but it's gonna cost the same as if I do it exactly".
I have no problem flagging lines with a compass for logging or clearing brush in rural areas.?ÿ I rarely get to do it anymore because I don't give clients a reduced rate.
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Earlier this year a fella aked me to flag his boundary based on a plat signed by another PLS.?ÿ I told him I'd be happy to hang flagging between the points shown on his plat and reiterated this in a contract. A couple hours with a compass and a hip-chain and I was finished.?ÿ This was a rural area and the client simply wanted to have an idea of his boundary.?ÿ ?ÿEven with a signed contract stating that I am hanging flagging between two pipes, I'm sure that an attorney could come after me if there was a problem. I'm not losing any sleep and he received no discount.
I don't seek out rough staking/flagging jobs, but I'm not afraid of them either.?ÿ
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Sounds kind of risky to me.?ÿ Supposed your flagging is off a bit and someone logs a few trees on the neighbor's land, and the neighbor goes for damages
Satchell v. Dunsmoor (Oregon, 1946)
A surveyor gave an estimate of $300 (something akin to $6k in today's dollars) to run a line. The clients balked at that price , so he eventually agreed to run a quickie compass line for $20 (~$400 today), on the understanding that 1) he would set no markers, 2) the property owners did the brush cutting, and 3) it was just so they could put up some pasture fence.?ÿ 8 years later the matter ends up in State Supreme Court.
The case is about whether an agreement boundary/practical location was made that day but I read into the story a surveyor who wished he hadn't taken that half-a$$ed job on.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
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"Q. Did he say that was to be the permanent boundary line of the properties?
"A. I naturally supposed it would be.
"Q. Not what you naturally supposed, but what did he say?
"A. Well, I don't remember just the exact words. He brought a surveyor out.
"Q. Was there anything said when you arrived at the place as to what that surveyor was going to do, what was the purpose of his survey, what kind of survey he was to make?
"A. No, I didn't hear him say what kind of a survey he made. He was a surveyor.
"Q. Did you hear him say anything to the effect that it was not and would not be an accurate survey?
"A. If he had I wouldn't have paid him."
#9 on the list of why I stayed in construction surveying. ?????ÿ
This cannot be done in Idaho without a record of survey, which means you need to resolve the line(s) you are marking. Many reasons for this law have been identified above.
In North Carolina we are required to provide a survey report and sealed detailing what we done for the client, if a map is not drafted.
If I had grown up surveying I would agree with you. However, I grew up logging and watched my dad and many others flag boundaries without issue.?ÿ?ÿ
Again, I don't seek out flagging jobs.?ÿ I get the feeling that I communicate with abutters more than the average PLS.?ÿ Also, in the Colonial states I've worked in, there is no worry that non contiguous boundaries thousands of feet away could impact the location of my boundary.?ÿ?ÿ
I've chastised too many engineers about over-engineering.?ÿ Because of this, I force myself to accept small risks to avoid being a hypocrite.
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I have tried every possible way to burn myself by helping people who swear they don't want a "certified survey plat" and only want a general idea.?ÿ
I,'ve worked in the same county for 50 years and still get calls from realtors I've known for decades who say the same thing as our first conversation:
Landowner: can't you just show me where the approximate corners are, they don't have to be THAT close?
Me: that would still take a lot of time, and you would get no documentation with my stamp on it.
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Landowner: ok just flag the corners you can easily find.
Me. How would I know what is "easy"? Without taking a lot of time, about as much for a certified survey.
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Landowner: You are the surveyor. If you can't figure it out, who can. I'll find someone who can.
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Me, a few weeks later after a reasonable job of flagging a few points that seem right, and charging for about one hour: sir you agreed that you would get no certified plat.?ÿ
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Landowner: I thought you had computers and fancy equipment, why shouldn't I get a document before I pay you? Word around here is that you only want to make a high dollar profit so I'm calling Joe surveyor down the street and get him to do it right.
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Me to self: "idiot, you swore you would never again try to help people, decades ago. Damn you idiot"
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Related to that, if you set a "temporary point" years later that will be the point still standing and the one everyone will be using.?ÿ
Marking lines with a compass and hip chain is a bad idea. If youre a licensed surveyor, not ok.?ÿ We are supposed to guide and protect the public, often times from themselves.?ÿ
Loggers, though often very good at their job should not be allowed to mark lines either.?ÿ How is that not considered "boundary surveying"?
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Just my two cents
@flga-2-2
I was called in to provide a boundary survey on two construction projects last year where 1) a driveway and building were constructed partially on the adjoiners property 2) a $1M design required temporary construction easements on the adjoiners land. Neither had a boundary survey before design, the design engineer used county parcel GIS data. The first is still in negotiations for resolution. In the case of the second, the adjoiner wouldn??t sign the contract for the temp easement. He said it wasn??t needed even though the design clearly indicated it was. I surveyed the boundary and the adjoining land owner was correct. The parcel data used by the design engineer was only about 200 feet off from the clearly marked and maintained line in the field.?ÿ
about 200 feet off from the clearly marked and maintained line in the field
Aw, what's the problem with a couple of hundred feet here and there..... ?????ÿ
You can often make more profit turning down work than taking it.?ÿ
The only time I will "Flag" line is in the case of needing the lines marked for the health department to perc test a property. Even then I am still surveying the boundary, I am just not putting stakes on the lines but on trees that are close to the line and even then I put the flagging inside the property lines.?ÿ
Had a guy wanted to pay me to flag his property lines with his wife's art work. At first I thought he was pulling my leg so I played along since he was a doctor and I was sure he was joking. He was not. When I gave him an estimate on the price he choked and howled about highway robbery. I just said to him, well I guess it's safe to say then you don't put a very high price on your wife's artwork. That didn't over as well as I'd hoped and I didn't get the job but I'm pretty sure that was a blessing. I can't afford to color outside the lines like some people.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I check all the boxes and follow the rules in the state in which I am working, but determining how we protect the public is much more subjective with surveying than with engineering or medicine or accounting.?ÿ One thing??s for sure, despite differing rules regarding closure standards, adverse possession, proper monumentation, right of entry, requirements to record, statutes of limitation, education etc., no one state stands out as being uniquely dangerous to the public.?ÿ Some states still allow real property owners the ability to create family subdivisions without employing a PLS.?ÿ Some states allow PEs, who may have never taken a real estate law class, to perform subdivisions of land.?ÿ Farm and timber lots can be surveyed to an accuracy of just 1:5000 or much less in some states.?ÿ The single most important way to protect the public is to be honest.?ÿ I view my client as 51% of the public.?ÿ My grandmother would say, ??Mind your pennies and your dollars will take care of themselves.??ÿ Mind your clients and the public will be just fine.
As far as running a compass line is concerned, a Suunto compass threaded into a monopod can be quite accurate with proper procedure.?ÿ Larger staff compasses are even better, especially for areas with high relief.?ÿ At least where I grew up, if a PLS refused to flag a wood lot with a compass, they would be openly mocked (and rightly so).?ÿ Granted, I've met shockingly few PLSs outside of New England who have spent the necessary time to learn how to competently use a compass.?ÿ So, I agree that most PLSs and Party Chiefs shouldn't touch a compass and should always use their total stations and GNSS units for absolutely everything, with no exceptions whatsoever (yes that is sarcasm).?ÿ I, having developed the requisite skills, view my compass, tape, and hip-chain as just another tool to use on rare occasions.?ÿ
Regarding loggers finding and flagging boundaries, the only way to stop this practice is to greatly increase the penalty for cutting trees off-property.?ÿ Typically the rate is triple stumpage, which is a joke.?ÿ Likewise, the cost of the fine for surveying without a license would have to be increased to an amount that would appear draconian to everyone but a PLS.?ÿ As many have indicated on this forum, it's difficult to get a PLS to do anything other than a complete boundary survey, which I frankly believe to be more about cost analysis than a concern for the client or the public at large (which is fine and how a good business should be run).?ÿ The cost of hiring a PLS to survey a 500 acre tract is much greater than the cost of paying damages for cutting a few trees over the line and that only matters if the logger is honest.?ÿ Although it's a harsh view, I believe that it is ultimately the responsibility of a land owner to tend to their asset.?ÿ?ÿ