Radial Bearings - PC to Radius Point or Radius Point to PC?

I'm not familiar with the term 'radial bearings'. In my experience curves are described as either being 'radial', as the radius point is 90 degree from the incoming tangent and the outgoing tangent bearing being 90 degrees to the same radius point, the delta of the curve being equal to the deflection of the incoming and outgoing tangents and the chord bearing being the incoming tangent bearing, +/- 1/2 the delta. In the case of a non-radial curve, this is the exception and is clearly defined and requires a chord bearing to get from the PC to the PT. I guess I'm missing something but haven't been able to put my finger on it. In the case of a non-radial curve, a bearing and distance to and from the radius point would be helpful, but I can't recall ever running across a description taking that approach, usually you're just given that chord bearing with a wink and a nod.

Radial Bearings are not used in Oregon. They were in B.C., but its been a long time since I was there so I can't remember the custom. I'd say that if Wattles recommends something, I'd go with that - local statute or custom to the contrary.  

This is the first time that I have heard the term.  It does seem like a handy idea.

I've seen curves described as radial on surveys in Idaho, but I think the only curve elements that were provided were the radius and delta.  A radial bearing doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless the curve was non-tangent and in that case it seems simpler to just list the chord bearing.

From what I've seen in is common for non-tangential curves in Nevada and sometimes California to have the direction of the curve only described with a radial bearing.  Here is an example of part of a description with this:

I'm not sure it matters as long as you identify the direction of the curve. if you know the curve is concave the SW and the radial lines bearing is to the SE then you can surmise the bearing is to the RP.

I actually prefer to reference the line 'from which the radius point bears #####' but I have used the radial line as well.

They were fairly prevalent in parts of WA at a time.  I see them turned around often.  Its definitely Radius Point to PC   

In the context of Writing Legal Descriptions by Gurdon H. Wattles, the term “radial” refers to the bearing from the radius—which is the center of a curve—to a point on that curve. In practical terms, it’s the line drawn from the curve’s center outward to a point along the curve, used to define one's position relative to the curve

Gurdon Wattles was the dean of description writers. You would do well to follow him. This is how my legal description writer does it, based upon Wattles:

BEGINNING at the

THENCE North 60.00 feet to a point on the arc of a non-tangent curve concave to the Southeast, a radial line of said curve through said point having a bearing of N 78°47'47" W;

THENCE Northeasterly along the arc of said curve, to the right, having a radius of 50.00 feet, with a chord of N 42°28'30" E 51.91 feet, and a central angle of 62°32'33" for an arc distance of 54.58 feet to a point of tangency;

THENCE N 73°44'46" E 70.00 feet to the POINT OF TERMINATION.

Posted by: @bruce-small

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THENCE North 60.00 feet to a point on the arc of a non-tangent curve concave to the Southeast, a radial line of said curve through said point having a bearing of N 78°47'47" W;

I remember doing a few of those when I was in Arizona. Oddly enough, the only place I ever ran into non-tangent curves was in Arizona, and it was more than a few times.

@bruce-small One of the things I love so much about this place, I'm always learning something new.

Wendell, no names mentioned but you can guess which firm, three non-tangent curves in a row, all with just delta, radius, and arc, so impossible to compute. And on top of that, hand annotated so they had the radius and arc transposed. Just shove it out the door and hope nobody notices.

@matt8200 

this is in Colorado too, and Likely everywhere if you start looking around enough.  My guess is that its surveyors that were trained that way, esp in drafting. 

Posted by: @wendell

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Posted by: @bruce-small

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THENCE North 60.00 feet to a point on the arc of a non-tangent curve concave to the Southeast, a radial line of said curve through said point having a bearing of N 78°47'47" W;

I remember doing a few of those when I was in Arizona. Oddly enough, the only place I ever ran into non-tangent curves was in Arizona, and it was more than a few times.

I absolutely hate seeing this, almost as much as " From the true point of beginning...."  These words don't help. Lefthand or righthand, left, right, clockwise, counterclockwise..... these all indicate a direction.  Concavity isn't a directional measurement, its a description of a lens or more certainly a curvature of non-conforming and changing values.... and a poor choice to make the person using it seem like they're trying to sound smarter than they really are....  and the same for the Olde English stuff too.... 

whew.

Apparently I had some pi%$ and vinegar left over from the last semester and the PS.  Rant over.  Carry on... Nothing to see here.....  

Posted by: @jitterboogie

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These words don't help.

They help, they just don't help very much. 

Count me among those who hate concavity descriptions, because it means I have to draw mental (and sometimes physical) sketches to figure out if the curve is going right or left.  Since I'm translating concavity to right/left, why not just tell me right/left in the first place

Now, as to True Point of Beginning:  it's the way I was taught by Roy Minnick, and it stuck.  I still use it, complete with capitalization as Roy taught us.  Weird, regional, funky -- okay, I'll cop to that.  But old dogs and new tricks don't mix well.

And as long as we're complaining about description styles:  I dislike seeing the word "said" before every reference in a description.  If "said" is needed to clarify something, fine, but much of the time the reference is clear without it.  I've had some descriptions submitted to public agencies come back with 10 or more instances of the word "said" inserted in red, which makes the description sound like it was written by a third-grader.

Here is a statement in a document from British Columbia which states that the radial bearing is from the radius point to the curve point. Or so it appears to me. 

This is from a document named "Survey and Plan Rules" published by the Association of British Columbia Land Surveyors

Microsoft Word - SPR V1.1 - Introduction.docx

I did more searching online and it appears that in Clark County Nevada (Las Vegas) it is a requirement that radial lines be from the PC to radius point.

https://www.lvvwd.com/assets/pdf/easement-submittal-surveyors-checklist.pdf

In descriptions with radial bearings that I am able to find near Reno the radial bearings are from the radius point to PC so this may only be a Clark County Nevada issue.

@matt8200 I interpret that to mean for a non-tangent curve you must show either radial lines, or (from the pc to the radius point).

Agreed, that is describing two alternatives, not two descriptions for one requirement.

I'd prefer using concave actually, written as concave to the southwest for example, because it's less ambiguous than left or right, but that doesn't seem to be the convention in Idaho so I fell in line and do left/right.  I do like the simplicity of left/right though.