In 1999 Surveyor A did an ALTA survey on a shopping center in a somewhat difficult part of Tucson. Surveyor A is known as a meticulous boundary surveyor. In his view the boundary is either right, or wrong. If it is wrong it does not go out until it is right. Period.
Surveyor A found brass disks in handwells at the street intersections. Around 2012 the department of transportation repaved the street and was supposed to reset the brass disks in the handwells, but the inspector was asleep on the job, so only the handwells were set. There are rocks in the bottom of them, but no brass disks.
In 2013 I was driving by the site and saw a survey crew from Phoenix surveying for a new gas station in the corner of the shopping center. They drew my attention because they were finding or setting monuments with a GPS rover without a bipod under a large billboard. I told the Surveyor X that there was a previous ALTA survey available, but he made it clear he was not interested.
In 2014 I saw his boundary survey. He had opened the handwells, saw a rock in the bottom, called it a stone, and used the ÛÏstonesÛ for the boundary. I gave Surveyor X a phone call and reminded him I had offered to share the 1999 survey drawing with him, explained that was a rock in the bottom of the handwell, it was not a boundary stone, and the information he showed did not match the previous ALTA survey by two tenths.
I was there last week to look for monuments so I could do an ALTA survey on the site. I found Surveyor AÛªs monuments on the shopping center, and I also found in plain sight crowÛªs foot references to the previous brass disks in handwells on the curbs or walks in each quadrant. When intersected they match Surveyor AÛªs distances to one hundredth.
What would you do, if anything, about Surveyor X.
wrote: " two tenths."
I'm pretty sure the guy would ignore any complaint or further information you directed to him.
You know your board better than most on the forum. Even though it probably doesn't meet standards, and he didn't do a decent job of research (ignoring prior survey practically handed to him), would they get excited about two tenths?
Bruce Small, post: 329749, member: 1201 wrote: In 1999 Surveyor A did an ALTA survey on a shopping center in a somewhat difficult part of Tucson. Surveyor A is known as a meticulous boundary surveyor. In his view the boundary is either right, or wrong. If it is wrong it does not go out until it is right. Period.
Surveyor A found brass disks in handwells at the street intersections. Around 2012 the department of transportation repaved the street and was supposed to reset the brass disks in the handwells, but the inspector was asleep on the job, so only the handwells were set. There are rocks in the bottom of them, but no brass disks.
In 2013 I was driving by the site and saw a survey crew from Phoenix surveying for a new gas station in the corner of the shopping center. They drew my attention because they were finding or setting monuments with a GPS rover without a bipod under a large billboard. I told the Surveyor X that there was a previous ALTA survey available, but he made it clear he was not interested.
In 2014 I saw his boundary survey. He had opened the handwells, saw a rock in the bottom, called it a stone, and used the ÛÏstonesÛ for the boundary. I gave Surveyor X a phone call and reminded him I had offered to share the 1999 survey drawing with him, explained that was a rock in the bottom of the handwell, it was not a boundary stone, and the information he showed did not match the previous ALTA survey by two tenths.
I was there last week to look for monuments so I could do an ALTA survey on the site. I found Surveyor AÛªs monuments on the shopping center, and I also found in plain sight crowÛªs foot references to the previous brass disks in handwells on the curbs or walks in each quadrant. When intersected they match Surveyor AÛªs distances to one hundredth.
What would you do, if anything, about Surveyor X.
Shake my head in disgust, stomp around cursing Surveyor X, show incredible disdain for said X because of the disrespect shown toward Surveyor A, post something about it on SurveyorConnect, have supper, watch a little recap of the golf tournament, sleep refreshingly well, get up tomorrow and do it all over again.
At some point, we learned to live with this kind of thing, didn't we?
It's guys like X that keep the good ones in business repairing their screw ups. It's something to file in your memory banks to give extra scrutiny to any of X's work if you're following behind.
Set monuments in the correct place, and provide a narrative of the history you describe including why you didn't accept the misplaced existing monuments? ((and) Send Surveyor "X" a copy of your plat prior to setting the correct monuments and show him your intentions to give him one last chance to have a more thorough discussion with you about it.)
I don't know if I would actually do that. I was just recently thinking about that. It's one thing to accept existing monuments that you can't prove or disprove their validity, and another to accept a monument location that you know the other surveyor didn't accept previously-set locations. Are you "upsetting the [proverbial] apple cart" to pincushion the existing monuments. You know how much we all hate that thought. I would never ignore another surveyor's offer to give me further information on the history of a certain boundary and I think the other surveyor's arrogance and shunning of your advice is rude and unprofessional.
Good luck.
Am I the only one that sees an interesting (and sometimes repetitive) underlying theme here?
"What do you do when the other guy isn't doing it right?"
There's nothing we can do except report him to the board (is negligence really determinable in an inquiry?)..or work around the bums.
Simply put, professionals will always disagree. The gravity of the disagreements will vary from petty to outstanding.
We use to have a colleague here in Oklahoma (he finally retired) that thought his license was bigger than everybody else's. He spent more time admonishing the rest of us over the phone than actually surveying. I think his license might have had neon lights and a turbocharger also. Crying wolf every time you run into a little pile of poop left by "the other guy" will soon desensitize your cries. There will always be greater and lesser surveyors than ourselves.
The best we have come up with is our published "Minimum Standards". If you've got the time to document the work surveyor 'x' is screwing up, present it to your local board. That is all you can do.
Bill said "would they get excited about two tenths?"
If the Board looks only at the two tenths, and not the carelessness that caused it, they might not be doing their job.
Is a difference in opinion of 0.2' a matter for board review? Are they going to start resolving issues of difference in professional opinions? Are they going to micromanage our surveys to make sure we are establishing corners as they would establish them. I can see them reviewing "gross negligence" but many of these things are matters of professional differences.
I know a Surveyor that is reporting another surveyor for accepting a different location for a section corner than he dd. I don't think it is up to the board to decide which one is "right" (my opinion anyway) but if a court of law decided that a one surveyor was guilty of "gross negligence" in some kind of boundary dispute, it would then be up to a State Board to review the case and decide if the offending surveyor should be penalized or loose his license. (P.S. I'm not telling any board how they should operate, just my opinion here).
Find Surveyor X's client and have them sign the complaint.
VA LS 2867, post: 329771, member: 1444 wrote: It's guys like X that keep the good ones in business repairing their screw ups. It's something to file in your memory banks to give extra scrutiny to any of X's work if you're following behind.
Maybe in VA, but in FL, work like that gets you hired and rehired b/c it's CHEAP... Not saying I agree, but your thoughts are nothing more than survey "Utopia" in the F-L-A...maybe someday though. We can all hope right?!
Sorry, I couldn't help myself:
First off Bruce, I admire you for bringing this to the attention of others so that we may review our own actions and also see hows others react.
Working backward, it seems to me that you have covered your bases with Mr. X. Moving forward I would send him a courtesy copy of your work however you decide to do it. The next move is up to him. If his work falls short of your or ALTA/ACSM standard that is one thing, but if it falls short of the law that you work under then you have to decide if you forward a copy of your work and theirs to your board of licensing for review. I don't know how it works in AZ but up here the board may consider this for review (or not). Have you discussed this with Mr. A?
When the monuments were removed you indicate that they were referenced. Was this information available to others in the community? If so may Mr. X have had that information? Alleging that Mr. X did improper work (when you were not there) is a serious accusation and the stigma that follows it (both ways) is very often not correctable. The big offender here is the City that did not re-set the points in the first place. You must fire off a memo to whom ever is responsible for these points not being in place and copy your state licensing board, your local and state professional society, the news paper, the Mayor and anyone else that may be influential. I submit that the points on the ground are more important to you then your relationship with Mr. X. If the lackadaisical attitude of the City Engineer, or whom ever, is allowed to go unchallenged than we are all in trouble.
In my community, there is a major street project underway and the plans for it have been done and redone several times. When the current engineers were negotiating with me for an easement I asked them if they are going file land corner records (a state mandated animal that we have) for those monuments in peril, including our lot corners. Because so far, the 17 points at last count, that are missing as a result of Phase 1 and 2 control the location of over 25 million dollars of real estate. That got their attention. Action, that is another thing altogether.
Respectfully,
Daniel Ralph, post: 329815, member: 8817 wrote: Alleging that Mr. X did improper work (when you were not there) is a serious accusation and the stigma that follows it (both ways) is very often not correctable. The big offender here is the City that did not re-set the points in the first place. You must fire off a memo to whom ,
From the OP, it seems like he observed the crew at the time of survey and actually was there.
Brad Ott, post: 329802, member: 197 wrote: Sorry, I couldn't help myself:
Me either:
ÛÏtwo tenthsÛ Holy crap!!!
Email McMillan for help! 😉
Have a great weekend. B-)
Just yesterday I took a shot from a found railroad spike set in 1980 to a section corner monument that is the third to have appeared in that spot since 1980. The record distance was 1120.00 feet. In 1984 a different surveyor shot the same distance but to a replacement monument for the section corner. He reported the distance to be 1120.08 feet. The monument was replaced again by a State highway project in about 1985. Then it was replaced again in 2013. My measurement was 1120.08 feet agreeing perfectly with the 1984 surveyor and, most likely, in full agreement with the 1980 surveyor who was using a 100-foot steel tape. BTW, the railroad spike was recovered about 8 inches deep in a gravel county road. Miracles do happen.
Daniel Ralph, post: 329815, member: 8817 wrote: First off Bruce, I admire you for bringing this to the attention of others so that we may review our own actions and also see hows others react.
Working backward, it seems to me that you have covered your bases with Mr. X. Moving forward I would send him a courtesy copy of your work however you decide to do it. The next move is up to him. If his work falls short of your or ALTA/ACSM standard that is one thing, but if it falls short of the law that you work under then you have to decide if you forward a copy of your work and theirs to your board of licensing for review. I don't know how it works in AZ but up here the board may consider this for review (or not). Have you discussed this with Mr. A?
When the monuments were removed you indicate that they were referenced. Was this information available to others in the community? If so may Mr. X have had that information? Alleging that Mr. X did improper work (when you were not there) is a serious accusation and the stigma that follows it (both ways) is very often not correctable. The big offender here is the City that did not re-set the points in the first place. You must fire off a memo to whom ever is responsible for these points not being in place and copy your state licensing board, your local and state professional society, the news paper, the Mayor and anyone else that may be influential. I submit that the points on the ground are more important to you then your relationship with Mr. X. If the lackadaisical attitude of the City Engineer, or whom ever, is allowed to go unchallenged than we are all in trouble.
In my community, there is a major street project underway and the plans for it have been done and redone several times. When the current engineers were negotiating with me for an easement I asked them if they are going file land corner records (a state mandated animal that we have) for those monuments in peril, including our lot corners. Because so far, the 17 points at last count, that are missing as a result of Phase 1 and 2 control the location of over 25 million dollars of real estate. That got their attention. Action, that is another thing altogether.
Respectfully,
I didn't know there were reference crow's feet but I walked each corner just in case and there they were, in plain sight. Half the fun of surveying is walking around the site with your eyes down and looking for what might be there.
Bear in mind that since his "stones" were off by two tenths that means that all of the adjoining boundary he did is off by two tenths, sort of slid eastward.
[QUOTE="Bruce Small
Half the fun of surveying is walking around the site with your eyes down and looking for what might be there.
.
Walking around...eyes down...talking to yourself...
Man in Blue: "Sir! Sir! Place the sword (machete) on the ground! DOWN!! ON THE GROUND!!!! Zaapppp!
And you thought a chain across an electric fence would get your attention...
DDSM:beer::beer:
You have already written a good summary. Enclose the relevant materials and report him. It will cost you more time and energy than it will be worth, but hopefully, he will at least have to sit in front of an EAC.
J.O. Teague, post: 329895, member: 390 wrote: You have already written a good summary. Enclose the relevant materials and report him. It will cost you more time and energy than it will be worth, but hopefully, he will at least have to sit in front of an EAC.
Google Street View can be very helpful, they have a good zoom, and they have a timeline so you can go back to previous years. In this case I can see one of the crow's feet at the back of sidewalk in June 2013. It was June 26, 2013 when I saw Surveyor X, so he could have found the references if he had looked.
That is interesting, Bruce. I think you have a case, but I have not much faith in the EAC's. Nevertheless, I would report it.
I hear the rumblings of "what is the problem with 0.2'?" It doesn't matter whether it is 0.2' or 10.0' if the procedure is so blantantly wrong. And the monument calls are wrong, and...and....
