We get a variation on this all the time, and generally a short conversation occurs, and the prospective client understands...but sometimes...
?ÿ
Called, asked for an estimate, general estimate developed, sent out (let us know if you want us to draw up an agreement).
Then emailed back with a lengthy email about how simple it was, how he just needed a line staked between two existing "landmarks". (How could that cost more than $500?)
So, I developed a standard response for just this situation...curious about feedback:
?ÿ
Thank you for giving us more information about your project and situation. Our profession does have certain restrictions and mandates that we must follow, mostly described in the RCW and WAC. Please see the following Q&A:
- Question:
- Can you just stake between two corners I show you?
- Why does it cost so much to stake between two points?
- Answer:
- No, not according to the law governing surveyors in Washington state.
- Depending on existing occupation, and the results of our survey, the field work may result in a requirement a survey map to be recorded with the county.
- See highlighted and bold (by me for ephasis) in the WAC below.
- The key section is (3). The requirement is for the surveyor to determine the accuracy and validity of the landmarks/monuments/etc to be used to stake the line.
- These are common questions that we and other surveyors encounter.
- This section has been interpreted differently by different surveyors, and so??
- The DNR has prepared guidance for surveyors and their clients, and it is attached to this email as a pdf.
?ÿ
?ÿ
WAC 196-29-110 Land surveying practice standards.
Failure by any registrant to comply with the provisions of the Survey Recording Act, chapter 58.09 RCW and
the survey standards, chapter 332-130 WAC shall be considered misconduct or malpractice as defined by RCW
18.43.105(10).
The following standards shall also apply:
(1) The monumentation, posting, and/or the marking of a
boundary line between two existing corner monuments constitutes the "practice of land surveying" as defined in chapter
18.43 RCW and chapter 196-16 WAC, and consequently
requires said work to be performed under the direct supervision of a registered professional land surveyor.
(2) The field survey work performed to accomplish the
monumentation, posting, and marking of a boundary line
between two existing corner monuments shall meet the minimum standards imposed by chapter 332-130 WAC.
(3) The monumentation, posting, and/or marking of a
boundary line between two existing corner monuments
involves a determination of the accuracy and validity of the
existing monuments by the use of standard survey methods
and professional judgment.
(4) The monumentation, posting, and marking of a
boundary line between two existing corner monuments shall
require the filing of a record of survey according to chapter
58.09 RCW unless both corners satisfy one or both of the following requirements:
(a) The corner(s) are shown as being established on a
properly recorded or filed survey according to chapter 58.09
RCW and are accurately and correctly shown thereon.
(b) The corner(s) are described correctly, accurately, and
properly on a land corner record according to chapter 58.09
RCW if their establishment was by a method not requiring
the filing of a record of survey
?ÿ
?ÿ
described in the RCW and WAC.
Spell out - the average client will have no clue what those are.
I can stake a line anywhere you like. As long as you don't care where we stake it. I'm thinking a 500 foot line across this field next to my office would be a nice place to stake it. So, Mr client, do you really care where we stake it?
If you don't care where, then 500$ is about right. In fact, we can have it done pronto!
???? ????ÿ
I guess I wouldn??t go into that much detail on a likely fruitless exchange. One or two sentences along the lines of Land Surveyors have to follow certain professional standards of practice and can??t simply accept two monuments without sufficient research and effort to verify them. I am sorry the cost to practice as required by law exceeds the fee you expect to pay.
I can stake a line anywhere you like. As long as you don't care where we stake it. I'm thinking a 500 foot line across this field next to my office would be a nice place to stake it. So, Mr client, do you really care where we stake it?
If you don't care where, then 500$ is about right. In fact, we can have it done pronto!
???? ????ÿ
As long as you put your name and number on it, and clearly mark what you are staking...
If it looks like you staked the property line, you own that line (at least in WA).
So, yes, I will stake a line across your field, but no where near your boundary (unless I know where that boundary is).
I guess I wouldn??t go into that much detail on a likely fruitless exchange. One or two sentences along the lines of Land Surveyors have to follow certain professional standards of practice and can??t simply accept two monuments without sufficient research and effort to verify them. I am sorry the cost to practice as required by law exceeds the fee you expect to pay.
I agree, but the process was two fold, but partly this educates the others in the office on the specific "why" we will and will not do what others are in the habit of doing.
As a boilerplate I think the letter is too long and abstract for the attention span of many clients and too short to provide any education for office staff.
You also never really address the question of price, which might be just as well to remove. Explaining the entire system of capitalism may be quite the challenge.
?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
I'll stake just one line, but obviously need to do all the work (most of the time) to figure out the whole lot.?ÿ So, the client will save some cost on just staking the one line.
But $500.?ÿ Here, it's at least double that, since the first $500 just covers the admin and proposal time.?ÿ
I try to explain what goes into the cost, copy and paste from the last time I had to explain it.?ÿ Most of the time if they're already questioning it, I don't hear back.
@dmyhill?ÿ
?ÿ
You can use the benign brain tumor analogy:
"Hi, I was told by my family physician that I have a benign brain tumor.?ÿ That should cost like way less than 500 dollars to remove because it's not cancer right?"
?ÿ
That might help get through to people the complete scope of the depth and breadth of what land surveying is and how it's not just some simple line or just a point.
?ÿ
I did like your tsunami approach though too.
If they want to marginalize the value of the profession by paying less than it costs, then they deserve what they get like someone getting a benign brain tumor removed by a quack.
?ÿ
?ÿ
I always try to explain that just because you have two found points on your lot line it doesn't make them correct. I'll tell them that one could be in error in one direction while the other may be off in the other direction and still the distance between them may be correct and that without locating other corners to verify them they could be putting their improvements in the wrong place. I then explain that if I need to go through the work required to verify the two corners, I've basically done the complete boundary anyway. This seems to satisfy almost all of the clients asking. The ones that aren't happy with it generally have some financial issues anyway and choose not to move forward which is just fine with me.?ÿ
If it is so simple just tie a string on one end and walk the string to the other end. If it isn't that simple tell me why you need my professional services.
As a boilerplate I think the letter is too long and abstract for the attention span of many clients and too short to provide any education for office staff.
You also never really address the question of price, which might be just as well to remove. Explaining the entire system of capitalism may be quite the challenge.
?ÿ
?ÿ
?ÿ
I dont think it will ever actually go out in the form I wrote, but it was a moment of frustration. In that form, it only went internal (and to the entire internet).
The last couple times I was asked, "why does it cost so much?" I told them my company pays well, we have excellent benefits, and a retirement plan. Plus we keep our computers, software and field equipment up to date. All of that costs money, so we have to charge enough to cover those costs.
A big part of the issue is that people only see the time spent in the field and value it at something comparable to what they view as a tradesman wage.?ÿ They do not, and have no desire to, understand other expenses and time involved.
The elephant in the room is liability:
If I come out and mark the line between the 2 points you found, and your neighbor has a proper survey; finding those 2 stakes were in error. You're going to want someone to pay to move your fence.
Wouldn't it be smart to do it right the first time?
@lurker?ÿ
Winner of the post of the day!!!!
?ÿ
Smart ass troll response would be...
"Because the lawyers...."
?ÿ
????
@lurker?ÿ
Winner of the post of the day!!!!
?ÿ
Smart ass troll response would be...
"Because the lawyers...."
?ÿ
????
This is now SOP
And think, in a heavily regulated region, the cost of a survey will be so much less expensive. Imagine how much more a landowner will pay in areas without those helpful regulations.
My brother runs his own remodel/carpentry shop and he says it's amusing how people think his fees are outrageous just because there's not a college program that teaches what he does.?ÿ He also gives them the option of paying lump sum or buying the materials and paying his hourly rate ($70).?ÿ He says he's noticed the rate rubs people the wrong way if it's more than they make personally per hour.?ÿ Funny stuff, imo.
