I was asked to meet with two people from the county and the GDOT project manager to discuss the project affecting where I live. Several weeks ago I was provided ??costing plans? that were obviously not intended to given to a land owner for negotiations. I asked for a set of design plans and told them our meeting would not be productive unless I had them a couple days ahead of time. I figured they would most likely just bring them to the gathering. Everything was scheduled two weeks ahead of time and I emailed a short list of questions when I replied to the ??invitation?. That should have been plenty of time to gather a little information and answer a couple questions, right? The gathering was last Thursday morning at my driveway. When I went down there, the county folks were already there. Two people from GDOT got there shortly after I did. They said the surveyor (subcontractor-large company) was supposed to be there as well. Two people from that company arrived a little late. So now there is a group of six people ready to talk me into giving easements. The first thing I said was that I had no plans. Everyone looked at the GDOT project manager, so I asked him if he brought them. He changed the subject without answering. I interrupted and asked a second time. He said no. Then proceeded to explain that it was because I had filed a Freedom of Information Request and now it all has to go through their legal department. So it??s my fault because no one even replied for over a week the first time I asked? I told him that it was cancelled when they wanted $150. I pushed harder and he admitted that the design plans weren??t even finished yet. I told them to come back when they were, got in my truck and left them standing there. Was I in the wrong? Personally, I think I exercised great restraint even though I know I was rude.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
I don't know the standard operating procedures where you live, but I'm pretty sure that the Mass DOT folks go to greater lengths to communicate and work with the general public. The way these folks are acting seems kind of dodgy to me. I, too, would be peeved at the "failure to communicate" a response to your email request. On the other hand, I've experienced this sort of breakdown in comprehension many times when dealing with clients and public servants by email. Some people just don't read emails very thoroughly. You may wish to switch to mailed letters. Paper seems to be more authoritative for some reason. In your shoes, I might have been aggravated, but I think I would have stayed to hear what they had to say about the easements they were after. You might have gleaned some useful information.
Also, I think you should have shelled out the $150, and kept them on the legal hooks to provide you with the requested information.
- It's not unusual to be at property acquisition phase before the design plans are at 100%. But they should at least have some 30% plans available. How else would they know that easements were needed?
- FOIA - Did you really? I mean, that's kind of a last resort. Just ask before going to the guns.
- Showing up late for a meeting. Not good. Not phoning when you realize you are going to be late. Worse. Disrespectful.
- You made yourself clear about having plans. They disrespected that. Too bad for them.
You were not wrong.
Stacy, We have never met but I have a feeling that you and I are of like mind on this and from what you have described so far I smell a rat. I have no experience with the FOIA stuff but that could have been easily diffused by the other parties being a bit more forthcoming and not so cloak and dagger and secretive.
I believe you acted well and I would not worry about being perceived as having been rude.?ÿ
Do you have a lawyer??ÿ
I do not know what the situation looks like on the ground but from what I understand you are going to loose the privileges of some of your land with the construction of this bridge. If it were a buried sewer or water line I would not have much of an issue with and easement since I could still enjoy and use the land above. HOWEVER with a?ÿ bridge, being an above ground an permanent structure I feel like a easement is a "bridge too far" as you cannot use the land. I doubt that I would grant an easement if I was faced with this but I would seriously consider selling it them with some extra stipulations, such as a public water tap, public sewer stub or two, a street light or two.
- It's not unusual to be at property acquisition phase before the design plans are at 100%. But they should at least have some 30% plans available. How else would they know that easements were needed?
- FOIA - Did you really? I mean, that's kind of a last resort. Just ask before going to the guns.
- Showing up late for a meeting. Not good. Not phoning when you realize you are going to be late. Worse. Disrespectful.
- You made yourself clear about having plans. They disrespected that. Too bad for them.
You were not wrong.
Mark,
I'm working on a railroad project in conjunction with CALTRANS, the fact being that they need us to redesign a grade crossing in order for them to complete their intersection.?ÿ I asked for and received their existing CAD files.?ÿ Turns out they like to scrub the control.?ÿ Okay, I talk to their project engineer and get directed to a surveyor in the district.?ÿ I was then informed that I need to fill out a FOIA form for them to release the info.?ÿ Since I indicated that I would not be implicating CALTRANS in a lawsuit it does not need to go through legal, but I'm a week out from when I sent in the form asking for two control points.
Easements are tricky.
Often it is better to give/sell the land and retain an easement for your use...
as a consultant for Caltrans I ran into situations like this several times:
Caltrans was the fee owner of a highway. PG&E (Pacific Gas and Electric) had a gas main crossing that highway, with an easement.
The total cost of moving that gas main 1/2 mile West was paid by Caltrans... they had no other option. The existing Easement gave PG&E a superior right. It was Big $$$.
I believe this is the reason Caltrans only gives what they call "encroachment permits", never Easements.
Given the option (forestall eminent domain action), I would rather be the Easement owner
When there is a TxDOT project that will impact a community and certainly the property of?ÿ many individuals, they hold a public meeting ahead of any acquisitions to show probable routes and the areas affected.
I'd say your situation is that they do not intend to bargain and have something set in stone already, especially that they are already negotiating for easements.?ÿ The first phase of a widening project is to move all the utilities into the affected properties and declare the location of the new r/w.
I'd be saying "show me the money" before agreeing to anything they say.
I'd give this a yes and no.
You are spot on to want plans at whatever level of completion is available. At the same time recognize final design is rarely done prior to aqcuiring the r-o-w.
I would have made it clear that no meeting would happen if I didnt have the plan sheets affecting me. Filing the FOI request did three things. First, it put them on the defensive. You were likely flagged as a problem owner immediately. Second, you probably spent $150. You filed it so you pay the cost. They will tally up the cadd time to plot, engineers or surveyors time to review (even if just to stamp prelim) and admin time. Third, you upped the cost of the project. Granted there were several others that contributed. The PM should have responded.
I get the feeling your hackles were up well before the meeting. Maybe I'm reading that wrong. Try calming thjngs down by asking for a fresh start with plans. If the PM is any sort of decent fellow he will accept that as a gift and step up.
My .02, Tom
Mark,
I'm working on a railroad project in conjunction with CALTRANS, the fact being that they need us to redesign a grade crossing in order for them to complete their intersection.?ÿ I asked for and received their existing CAD files.?ÿ Turns out they like to scrub the control.?ÿ Okay, I talk to their project engineer and get directed to a surveyor in the district.?ÿ I was then informed that I need to fill out a FOIA form for them to release the info.?ÿ Since I indicated that I would not be implicating CALTRANS in a lawsuit it does not need to go through legal, but I'm a week out from when I sent in the form asking for two control points.
Sure. But first you ask. Then you threaten to FOIA. Then you FOIA if you have to.?ÿ?ÿ
I would not give them shit.
We set case law by having a jury award a higher price than we asked for and set a precedent?ÿfor case law in Georgia for the matter.?ÿ
Hire a lawyer.?ÿ
Josh Lewis IV
In my opinion you walked away from an opportunity to foster good will with those who will likely get what they want anyway. I agree that you were entitled to receive a plan or written agenda of what was going to be discussed in advance and it should have come from the person who called the meeting along with a list of who was going to attend.?ÿ I wouldn't have danced around them with the FOIA for any of these discussions.?ÿ
I would have canceled the meeting the day before because I didn't have the materials I requested.?ÿ
I've said it here before, we need to mentor our peers sometimes in how to conduct business properly and give professional courtesy.?ÿ
That all said, we all understand frustration when someone wants your land. It is common nature to get defensive about it. It will take a smarter man than I to resolve that.?ÿ ?ÿ
I worked as a consultant on GDOT projects for over 30 years. GDOT has lost a wealth of knowledge through attrition. I doubt that there?ÿis anything subversive going on here. I suspect that it is straight out incompetency. ?ÿI now live in another State and do?ÿno GDOT work. Life is good. I suggest that you document your meeting and send a letter with the meeting minute to GDOT. Be sure to show that your attorney, ?ÿlegislator, and state senator?ÿhave been copied. You can also state that their Surveyor and Geo-tech are not to set foot on your property without written permission. I have seen these actions get some attention.
It??s no secret that I oppose the project. It??s a terrible waste of tax money for one thing. I learned long ago that you can??t beat the DOT if they want the project to go forward. So, I decided to keep an open mind and make informed decisions and maybe I could work it out to our benefit in some way. I won??t go into the back story or details but I asked for plans multiple times. Then asked if a FOIA was going to be necessary. Getting no reply from the PM, I filed the FOIA.
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
Mark
In this case they told me I would need to file the foia.?ÿ It was not a hostile thing, we are working on the same project and in the long run they are paying my bill.?ÿ It was just how they handle it.
Mark
In this case they told me I would need to file the foia.?ÿ It was not a hostile thing, we are working on the same project and in the long run they are paying my bill.?ÿ It was just how they handle it.
Fair enough. I was really referring to Stacy's circumstances. FOIA is a sledge hammer you use if you have to.?ÿ
When I was in OK one of the jobs was a highway bridge over the Cimarron River. The limits of private ownership at the banks of the river were governed by a well monumented, but poorly documented in the public record, USCOE?ÿ survey. The Keystone Reservoir was just a few miles downstream.?ÿ I was told that the only way to get any records on that was to file FOIA, and the typical wait time for a response was measured in months. I said I'd make a few calls first. Sure enough, I got hooked up and a couple days later at the Keystone Dam office was shown into an unheated work shed with a file cabinet full of old field books and other records from the '60s.?ÿ In an hour I had more than I needed.?ÿ The staff was friendly and helpful, plus they allowed that nobody had ever asked to see that stuff before.?ÿ ?ÿ
I bet the incompetency angle applies. ?ÿMost people roll over belly up and take their beating without questions. ?ÿThis leads bullys to not know how to handle tough situations.
For me, self-satisfaction from being "in the right" quickly gives way to self-loathing for not handling it better.?ÿ The professionals I admire most keep a cool head and control their emotions, even in the face of incompetence or open hostility.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
I am wondering how they could have final construction plans if they don't know what easements they can get?
Well you have a group show up for a meeting, how late is a little late 5, 10 mins? Depending on how far they drove that may not be that bad for being late. I would have said I can not make any agreements until I see the proposed plans, but I also would have stayed and listened to what they said, and wanted to do. Just because you did not have the paper plans, you still could have gotten verb plans for the easement. Any questions they asked about wanting an easement, I would have said I can not make any decisions until I see the paper plans.?ÿ
If I was the Surveyor for the company doing the work, I would be like well he wasted two of my guys time, I am not going to do him any favors now.?ÿ