A client called last week and said; I think my neighbor moved my property corner and I need someone to verify what's going on. I had it surveyed in 1997; I checked between the 2 back corners recently and come up 4 or 5 inches short.
I did the field work today and found 3 out of the 4 corners to be within an acceptable tolerance of where the 1997 surveyor said he set them, based on my survey. But the corner in question was 0.7' north (into my clients property) from where the 1997 surveyor said he set it.
The corner looked good; it wasn't leaning, stuck in a concrete footing for a fence post, it was nice and plumb; the ground around it was eroded away and about 0.4' was sticking out of the ground. It was a 1/2" rebar with a yellow cap, marked with the 1997 surveyors number, just like he said he set, in good shape for being there for 19 years. The neighbor was building a new fence so it looked reasonable. But it definitely didn't match the measurement.
What would you do; how would you advise your client?
TIA
Dougie
my guess is that a fence builder disturbed it and 'put it back' and poured the footing
What made your client say " I think my neighbor moved my property corner"?
Depends. Did the 1997 surveyor perform an independent survey of just a retracement? If it was just a retracement then I would resurvey the lot and draw my own conclusions. Call up the 1997 surveyor and see if you can get a copy of his plat/notes. He might have tied that pin to something else. Call the fencing company and ask them if they disturbed it. Get all the information you can gather and then make a decision on it. It is tough telling clients that monuments hold unless you can prove its been disturbed. I gotta feeling the fencing guys will tell all.
BajaOR, post: 372825, member: 9139 wrote: What made your client say " I think my neighbor moved my property corner"?
He said he measured through the tall grass, between the 2 corners that were set by the surveyor he hired in 1997 and came up 4 or 5 inches short.
He doesn't live there, the house is vacant and under renovation. He's owned the property, in a middle class neighborhood, for several years. He visited the site a few weeks ago and saw that the neighbor was putting in a new fence; which prompted his concern.
The 1997 survey shows a fence encroachment, 1.2', he said he had them move it at that time.
The parcel, is a lot and a half in a 1912 plat. I found the 5 center-line controlling monuments; created the block based on them; and found his other 3 corners to be lees than 0.1' from my calculated position. The southwest corner was 0.7' north and just a few hundredths off line.
I agee that the corner was likely displaced when the fence was replaced. Perhaps the 1997 surveyor would prefer you reset his pin at calculated position instead of setting another.
If I were that 1997 surveyor, I would definitely appreciate the call.
Radar,
How does the new fence corner post fit your computed position? Agree with others on 'displaced/replaced' by fence.
DDSM:beer::beer::beer:
Label it as "disturbed" and move on.
I've had that label most of my life and have done quite well.
Someone probably disturbed it and subsequently replaced it "where it should go". I deal with this aggravation constantly. It's the fence companies,the irrigation companies, and the neighbor who watched "How to survey your own property" on Nickelodeon and "knew the surveyor was wrong" that cause the problems. Another problem I run into is neighbors cutting tree limbs overhanging an adjacent property owner. In Florida any tree limbs encroching on anothers may be cut. How the "Tree People" can figure out where the property line lies is another story. :woot:
geez - call the surveyor on a 19 year old survey for a lot ??
geez - call the fence company ??
heck the rod was set in concrete fence footing, the surveyord didn't do it.
fix it and move on.
Well, you are retracing a boundary.
1) Find all the relevant evidence (that means all available parol evidence as well, even the neighbor).
2) Properly apply the appropriate law/retracement principles
3) Sit down with the affected parties and present your opinion (based on facts and law) and
4) Help them resolve the issue(s) if there really are any.
[sarcasm]5) If all else fails call Kent.[/sarcasm]
Yes, measurements are evidence, but we need to remember where measurement facts generally rank in relationship to other facts - pretty darn low.
fence corner, concrete, pin in concrete, kinda tells the story.
Brian Allen, post: 372893, member: 1333 wrote: Well, you are retracing a boundary.
1) Find all the relevant evidence (that means all available parol evidence as well, even the neighbor).
2) Properly apply the appropriate law/retracement principles
3) Sit down with the affected parties and present your opinion (based on facts and law) and
4) Help them resolve the issue(s) if there really are any.
[sarcasm]5) If all else fails call Kent.[/sarcasm]Yes, measurements are evidence, but we need to remember where measurement facts generally rank in relationship to other facts - pretty darn low.
That stupid ranking system is overused and misused in my opinion. It's only a solution of last resort just above double-proportioning. The fact is, in my opinion, that all of the description and evidence should be in harmony with each other. If something doesn't jive, you figure out which faction fails. A corner monument that has been uprooted and reset could be the anomaly and all the other evidence including the measurements could be the evidence you need to show it's been moved.
This can be especially supported if all of the other measurement match the ones shown within a close tolerance and one monument only falls out of that circle of error or tolerance by a large amount.
[sarcasm]Prepare a boundary line agreement. Private citizens have the right and authority to establish their own common boundary and any physical evidence that they have done so must be respected by the surveyor.WE have no authority to compel any land owner to maintain the original boundary.WE have no obligation to follow in the foot steps of the original surveyor UNLESS the owners have preserved the original boundary.If the owners have erected a crooked fence and they want that to mark their boundary, that is their right and, if a building permit was issued to position an improvement, the fence cannot be challenged by the surveyor. The only thing necessary is for a surveyor to help the owners to draft and record a correction to the inaccurate existing description.[/sarcasm]
Brian Allen, post: 372893, member: 1333 wrote:
5) If all else fails call Kent.
Actually, I was hoping [USER=3]@Kent McMillan[/USER] would chime in here. He seems to be the authority on displaced property corners and how to resolve such issues.
Probably the easiest and least intrusive solution would be to just document it. I'd suggest to them that I prepare a simple R.O.S. noting the date of the fence installation if that can be readily established, the corner's position based on the 1997 survey and the current position of the disturbed corner in relation to the new fence corner and adjacent lot corners, showing how it has likely been moved during fence installation. If it ever comes to be a major issue for your client, they can pull that survey out of their sleeve and it should be clear to anyone concerned what happened. Just me 0.02'.
SURVEYLTD, post: 372884, member: 319 wrote: geez - call the surveyor on a 19 year old survey for a lot ??
geez - call the fence company ??heck the rod was set in concrete fence footing, the surveyord didn't do it.
fix it and move on.
"fix it and move on."
So you would set another monument?
QAVK YK TNKBVZ GZ YK TGHMO, ZHK YK FYZFDVR, RFZVNJ NKT RAGHO.
TTRJ :beer::beer::beer:
Tom Adams, post: 372901, member: 7285 wrote: That stupid ranking system is overused and misused in my opinion. It's only a solution of last resort just above double-proportioning. The fact is, in my opinion, that all of the description and evidence should be in harmony with each other. If something doesn't jive, you figure out which faction fails. A corner monument that has been uprooted and reset could be the anomaly and all the other evidence including the measurements could be the evidence you need to show it's been moved.
This can be especially supported if all of the other measurement match the ones shown within a close tolerance and one monument only falls out of that circle of error or tolerance by a large amount.
What "stupid ranking system" are you referring to?
