@jon-payne To muddy the waters, the u.s. supreme court says "shall" does not always mean "must" but can sometimes mean "may", if "shall" not defined in the statute and if context of the statement might indicate it means "may".
I did not bring this up really to condem anybody.
I was actually thinking that I could have done better. Those 8" deep in the pavement ones. Maybe I should have pulled them out, straightened, and put them back in. 2 of them, still had the original ypc on them. And were not bent over. I just hammered a 3/4" pipe over them. It took the big sledge hammer to do this. And hard swings. Just guessing here, but I think most surveyors, finding or seeing my rehabed markers, will just shoot and use these, the same as any other shot. They will be out of there in one minute, instead of digging. I feel that some of the time, some surveyors who don't rehab, are just in a hurry. The idea above, of using a piece of 1/2" pipe, as a sleeve, and keeping the original monument type.... I'm thinking about that. With a pipe, water can get down there. That's not good, especially in frozen places like Wisconsin, etc.
The tools to rehab are many, and varied. Here is a partial list:
A tire tool, made of super hard steel is a must have. They cost $50 or so. But, they can open very hard ground. Some 3/4 pipe, and 1/2" pipe, a hacksaw, knee pads, and fresh cool mix are pretty well necessary. Good sharp vise grips, a trowel, tuna can.
A dewalt battery Vacuume would be nice. I bought a slammer tool. It's not really heavy enough. But that tire tool is very handy.
Hammer it in, and pry. Then scoop out.
I'm wanting to learn more, and always do a better job.
N
If it was my own, certainly....Someone else's maybe, but usually not......
@nate-the-surveyor a decent geology hammer is irreplaceable. It can chew through six inches of asphalt faster than we can get the hammer drill set up..
I found this one that had escaped. I'm not rehabing it.
It's going to remain on the loose.
decent geology hammer is irreplaceable.
I've got one of these:
Another surveyor gave it to me. It was quite dull, but I sharpened it. I like it. (Thanks Steve)
I think he felt sorry for me!
@MightyMoe Some of the rebar do get loose... And even make it home. Into the scrap pile.
Anyway,
If it was my own, certainly....Someone else's maybe, but usually not......
Then what do you do with an obviously bent/disturbed monument set by someone else? Call them, and expect them to rehab it?
I need to get on these projects where you can chip down to the mons with one of these geologist picks. Most of the time I'm out in the road jackhammering 18" down with a 15 pound dig bar.
I've pulled up bent irons and straightened them out numerous times. I've also touched up a cross that was getting almost too light to see anymore. I've thrown a couple MAG nails in the hole before covering up an old stone. I found a stone once that way. I highly appreciated the previous surveyor that did that and it stuck with me.
@on_point generally our job is to locate the boundary. We mostly charge a lot more than just digging up evidence is worth.
It's true that boundaries are created by landowners (and very rarely the courts) but they hire us to tell them where the boundary created by their predecessors (or sometimes themselves) is.
The courts are only called on to locate boundaries when we fail, either by disagreeing with each other, refusing to provide a proffesional opinion, or when we fail to convince someone with an interest that we are right. (Of course there are also probate rulings/divorce rulings and the like...)
@aliquot I don’t know if I would necessarily consider it a failure. Some ppl just can’t be reasoned with and just like agitating their neighbors especially in an HOA. Also depends on how far you want to go with it. Personally, I just tell them this is the boundary based on the evidence found and if it’s different from what is currently accepted as boundary then offer some solutions then I advise them to talk to their neighbor and if they can’t agree on a solution then I leave it up to them and their attorneys. I don’t see the point in arguing with the neighbor because I already completed my service unless I’m summoned to court.
@on_point it's not necessarily a personal failure, just a failure in the sense that what we are licensed to do can't be achieved.
There should be no arguing with the neighbor. Put your proffesional opnion on the ground and on paper and be your plat convays the justification for your decisions.
We as a field crew never did; we would note the direction bent and shoot the center of entry into the ground. As a public sector employee who wasn't licensed at the time (I didn't get licensed until about two years prior to retiring), this was likely the best approach unless the chief surveyor directed otherwise. If the monument was cadastral AND within our R/W AND the agency actually PAID me to exercise my license, at the very least I would consider a rehab since our agency bore responsibility for such monumentation so placed within its R/W.
"Normally", yes. I have had occasion to find some markers that you just can't straighten. 1" rebar comes to mind as well as thin walled pipes, railroad rail, et cetera. That said, yes I normally beat it over even further, take a hammer, hit the bent top sideways to spin it, pull it, beat it straight, and replace in the hole. If it is more than 6" deep, I don't do that because I'd need a huge hole to fix it. In a dirt road maybe I would, in an asphalt road, no. In those cases where I can't, I typically place a nail at the base, where I shoot it, and note that I set a nail at the base of whatever bent pipe/rod/whatever it is.
So I found a pipe called for etc. top 6 inches was broken off completely found laying on its side a few tenths below surface. This was in marsh land it was the first thing Maggie hummed on. Once I determined it was not bent but actually broke and laying on its side I continued searching found the rest about 8 tenths below surface. Built a levee and was dipping water out as fast as it ran in. Found parts of the old flagging on it etc. now I don’t have any idea how long that pipe was originally but i do not want to pull it as it is where it is supposed to be after checking everything around the parcel and it is the oldest monument on said tract as it goes all the way back to vacated lines and an original corner on this property back before i was born. I have been wracking my brain on how to best preserve it. I was thinking of driving a rebar through the center and dropping the old pipe back on top maybe even a little j b weld. Would it be wrong to do this and make a note or callout stating found pipe partially broken added rebar to center etc. its been accepted atleast 5 times by various surveyors most recent was 2004 and back to 1952. I hate pin cushions or anything like them but how would you all do this. Sorry nate but I thought this fit in with everything.
I thought this fit in with everything.
It sure does. I couldn't agree more.
Now, was it a pipe, or a conduit?
I've found that conduit rusts faster than regular pipe.
If it were me, I'd consider replacing the pipe, with an identical pipe, (unless it's conduit). With identical size, but maybe longer pipe.
I have gotten in the habit of setting a 3/8" x 12" rebar, with top 5" below the surface, when I estimate that it may be controversial.
Imagine the surface monument (usually a 1/2" rebar, or 3/4" pipe) gets pulled, or pulled and moved. I come back, with Mr Shoney, in the presence of both parties, and zing! Dig out the hid monument. Now what?
Now, I put the surface monument back where it belongs. I really don't consider 2 mons. Touching each other a "pincushion". They are the "same point" for practical purposes.
I had a case about 7 yrs ago, where someone moved my surface monument. And cut down all 3 witness trees! My 3/8" rebar was still there.
I recommended my client sell Mr monument puller "all the land on that side of the road". He did. So the problem went away. But, that 3/8" rebar is still there. Faithfully marking the spot.
It was a way better solution than litigation.
I used that job to make my 1st Javad payment.
N
@nate-the-surveyor it is a old pipe just been around a long time. I found some old fencing and that pipe could have been disturbed as you could see where at some point the area was cleaned up with a machine. Old wire was old cattle wire fence and barbed wire only a little left in places on a 1000 ft run. After tying it down and all the corners around it I felt pretty good that it had not moved below surface just the top was broke off. Some of the old deed called for x farm etc now it’s an industrial area. So as I walked the lines I kept an eye out in for any resemblance of fence lines etc in this swampy area. I through a few t post in the truck this weekend as when i send the crew back that corner and one more i need them to set as it was probably pulled by a grass ninja on a zero turn as i never found it and you could tell where it was supposed to be a lawnmower had made some sharp turns. I am going to put them up to help keep them off . I just want to respect those before and not have someone thinking I didn’t except what was found. So i was thinking a note would help but wanted to ask those of you who have been around.