"Apropriate Scale"

> We're revising our survey manual. In the chap concerning cadastral surveying, it states that surveys will be draw at an "appropriate scale" - one comment was that this means a scale found on an engineer's scale.
>
> our state administrative rules say, "(The scale must be sufficient to legibly represent the required information and data.)
>
> My opinion is that the drawing can be a scale to legibly portray the data while keeping the number of sheets to a minumum.
>
> Your Opinions?

Funny, I thought about asking the same question recently. I don't even think VA addresses it, but logical thought to me would be: anything that could be found on an engineers scale, or by divisible by some even number thereof.

I had a survey project that was a really squirrelly shape and to get it to fit on 1 - 11x17 sheet I had to use a 1" = 150' scale to show some short lines and detail. So by that reasoning, you could use a 30 scale, and multiply by 5 or a 50 scale and multiply by 3 to scale something in. Oddly enough, I'm expanding that project and I'm starting to draw the plat, and it's just not fitting with the typical scales. I'm at 1" = 60' right now, and if I need to get a little more room for notes, I'd go to 1" = 80'. 1" = 100' is just a little small.

Basically, I don't believe in scales that end with a 5 (except 5 or 25) and something like a 70, 90, 130, 140, 170 scale wouldn't be kosher either... Does that make any sense at all?

Carl

You have touched on a pet peeve of mine.

Is it even necessary to legislate that an appropriate scale be used? Are there similar statutes/guidelines for engineers/architects that cover every detail of their final work products?

Good heavens, we have a state statute that says all our plats/surveys MUST have a north arrow, scale, basis of bearing, legends, township range and section.

Why does our profession have to have every little detail covered by state statutes, guidelines, etc.? Is every licensed profession as regulated and mandated as surveyors are? If we truley are professionals, do we really need to have everything legislated, if so why?

> My opinion is that the drawing can be a scale to legibly portray the data while keeping the number of sheets to a minumum.

If you can't lay a scale on it and come up with a rough distance quickly, why require that it be to scale at all? A map plotted at 1" = 71.64' may as well be a cartoon.

I vote for the engineering scale. I've done a very few maps at odd scales (like 1" = 150'), but I try very hard not to do so.

Who really cares?

That is the bottom line.

Most clients, except engineering firms, wouldn't even know what an engineering scale was, let alone how to use it.

It is rare anymore to actually attempt to determine some non-stated distance on a survey plat done by someone else. The general exception is an old subdivision map with very few numbers provided.

One should definitely use a scale that is an integer, preferably divisible by 10 or 25 and their multiples.

Who really cares?

I don't care either

I have been using whatever scale fits paper lately

on most of my mortgage surveys I've been using 1=25'

> If we truley are professionals, do we really need to have everything legislated, if so why?

Because if there weren't any regulations the slipshod artists would underprice the ethical practitioners and drive them out of business. It costs money to do things properly, and the notion that the "free market" will punish the slackers and reward the diligent doesn't work out very well with professional services. Most most clients don't buy professional services often enough to learn which ones are good and which ones are bad without getting burned in the process.

I just added a couple of words to your statement:

My opinion is that the drawing can be a standard engineering scale to legibly portray the data while keeping the number of sheets to a minumum.

I never have quite perfected the use of an "architect scale". Some kind of inches = something BS. I kind of can handle a "metric scale", but that is another vulcan mind altering experience. But I really have to look at it all with guilded mindset.

Why in the world anybody would plot something that is not the atypical 1"= 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50... or some expanded version thereof is beyond my old timer comprehension.

1"=25'. WFT is that. 1"=150'. Again, WTF is that. There are three sides on an engineers scale, with 6 options. Pick one... then use that number for your next lottery ticket.

jeez oh pete.... I can't wait to retire

> I never have quite perfected the use of an "architect scale". Some kind of inches = something BS. I kind of can handle a "metric scale", but that is another vulcan mind altering experience. But I really have to look at it all with guilded mindset.
>
> Why in the world anybody would plot something that is not the atypical 1"= 10, 20, 30, 40, or 50... or some expanded version thereof is beyond my old timer comprehension.
>
> 1"=25'. WFT is that. 1"=150'. Again, WTF is that. There are three sides on an engineers scale, with 6 options. Pick one... then use that number for your next lottery ticket.
>
> jeez oh pete.... I can't wait to retire

I agree w/ wayne.

So 1" = 33' or 66' Is Out ?

Plenty of reason to use a surveyor scale and the heck with engineer's scales.

Whoops, I are a engineer. BTW I also have a 1" = 25' scale for certain PennDOT submissions.

I guess I would blow them away with a 1:100 scale, i.e. 1" = 83.3333333' +/-?

Paul in PA, PE, PLS

Here's what the Library of Virginia Standards For Plats states:

Sec. 2. Recording Medium:Documents size shall be between 8 1/2 x 11 and 18 x 24 inches, and the scale shall be appropriate to the size of the paper.

I've personally always interpreted that as meaning that the scale should be sufficient to allow reading of the plat without great difficulty and in satisfaction of the minimum lettering size based on the plat scale. I've never heard other land surveyors in this area complain about the occasional plat drawn at a non-standard scale if it was necessary to meet the plat standards and maintain legibility.

Having said that I do try to use standard engineering scales when preparing my plats but that may be based on habits formed from years of preparing engineering design drawings. I've used a 1" = 80' scale on occasion as that scale seemed "appropriate" to the size of the paper being used and still maintained legibility without having to use multiple sheets. I agree with you Carl in that if a non-standard scale is going to be used it would be better to use one that is a multiple of a standard scale. As far as "odd" scales I have some VDOT plans in front of me this morning based on a 1" = 25' scale.

[sarcasm]Of course VDOT has a well deserved reputation for making its plans legible and user friendly. [/sarcasm];-)

> ...I agree with you Carl in that if a non-standard scale is going to be used it would be better to use one that is a multiple of a standard scale. As far as "odd" scales I have some VDOT plans in front of me this morning based on a 1" = 25' scale.

I try to only use 25 for house locations, but I am currently using it for a division survey that had to go to 2 sheets and I couldn't get all my tie information on 20, and 30 was too small and I couldn't get all my certs on... it's always something.

> [sarcasm]Of course VDOT has a well deserved reputation for making its plans legible and user friendly. [/sarcasm];-)

:good: 😉

So 1" = 33' or 66' Is Out ?

I also agree with Wayne.
That's one of the joys and the curse of CAD. You can plot any scale.
If you draw it at 25 why not shrink it a little to 30 so people can use it?

I see standard scales (20, 30, 50, etc) being less of an issue today compared to the past. We're required to file or record all our surveys at the county. Most counties around here scan them and post them online. The scanning process usually distorts the map, so most users can't use an engineering scale anyway.

I'd rather have a readable map sized to the paper than have a map that is at a common scale and is the size of a postage stamp.

So 1" = 33' or 66' Is Out ?

>So 1" = 33' or 66' Is Out ?

I've SEEN both of those types of scales, but they were very old. I'm looking at one now that is 1320/2640/24,000/62,500. It was from Dad's Ohio PLSS days. I've never had use for them.

So 1" = 33' or 66' Is Out ?

The only reason to use an engineering scale is habit. Any surveyor or engineer should be capable using a ruler and the very simple math required to find a distance from the plat. Landowners are unlikely to have an engineering scale anyways. As long as the plat is at a scale that clearly shows what needs to be shown everybody should be happy. No?

> You have touched on a pet peeve of mine.
>
> Is it even necessary to legislate that an appropriate scale be used? Are there similar statutes/guidelines for engineers/architects that cover every detail of their final work products?
>

It may be because engineering/architectural plans are seldom used by lay people while survey plats are used by land owners, retaliators, bankers, lawyers, ect.... Also depending on your state surveys may have been performed by "surveyors" with much less training then architects and engineers in the same state.

we have a seldom used requirement to show a metric scale on our plans.
i prefer 25 and 50 scale because the metric works to whole numbers.

Part of the problem is we protect ourselves with short timeframes to keep actions from being brought against us.