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so called software maintenance

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john-hamilton
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I have used Geolab since 1986, back when it was just a dos program. In years past I did all of my work using this least squares package. It is an excellent program, but it was updated infrequently. Updates were mainly to the interface (i.e. made it a windows program, etc). I wrote a bunch of programs to format data for input, and to read the output and make graphs, extract data, etc.

One of my main clients (USACE) wanted me to use Star*Net so that they could better understand the output (they use Star*Net) for deformation surveys that I was doing, so I started using Star*Net for smaller projects. One of the limitations of Star*Net relates to the areal extent of the network (i.e. not the number of stations). I have found Star*Net to be easier to use, and the output is more understandable for some less sophisticated users. But I still consider Geolab to be the gold standard. I especially need it for large 3DEP projects. I just finished field work on a 16,000 sq mile project, and had one last year that was 70,000 sq miles. I have looked at other packages, for example MOVE3, but have not found any reason to change.

As I mentioned, updates were infrequent, so sometimes I would pay the maintenance fee only to have no update at all that particular year. So There were many years I didn't pay. Last year I paid and got the latest version. Hardly any difference, in fact I find the new interface annoying because I have to type in the path every time I start the program, whereas older versions I could just click on the .iob file.

I got some messages recently that the maintenance was about to expire. So I try to run it this week. Won't run-maintenance expired. The pricing page does not mention that you MUST have a current maintenance agreement to run the software. In my experience with other packages, not having a maintenance agreement simply means you cannot get support or upgrades.

Here is what I received when inquired...

The standard licensing for all versions 2020+ is a yearly subscription-based model, meaning your license would have been valid until March 20 2024.

And when I asked about getting an install for an older version which I deleted from my PC when I upgraded.

Pre-2020 software is no longer available, but there is a perpetual licensing model for the current software:

Are there other software packages out there that REQUIRE a current maintenance agreement to even run?

 
Posted : May 2, 2024 11:24 pm
MightyMoe
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Yes, many do require a yearly fee.

I'm moving away from those programs as often as I can.

Sometimes it's not even the fee, but the hassle of dealing with it that makes me cancel.

An example is legal-aid. As far as I know it hasn't changed much in twenty years, so when they went to a yearly fee I looked around and found a very similar program in TBC, I have to pay for TBC so I've nixed legal-aid. And I love that program.

I'm not sure how many yearly fee programs I have left (Auto-cad, TBC are the main ones) but I'd like to trim them down to zero.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 12:26 am
john-hamilton
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I have always had a TBC agreement, because it does get updated frequently with improvements and additional features. But I think that it will still run if there is no agreement, just won't be able to update/upgrade. I could be wrong on that, as I have never been out of the agreement.

So my beef is not about having to pay for an upgrade/update, just that after having the program for 38 years all of a sudden I can't use it. If they make any kind of significant improvements I would gladly pay, but they usually don't and I have paid a number of times and got nothing as far as an update or upgrade.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 12:33 am
john-putnam
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I think the question should be are there any software packages that do not require a subscription. Even the ones that do not 'require' a service agreement often make you pay for past years when you decide it is time to upgrade.

I need to upgrade the software on my geometry trolley. The manufacture has not made any real improvements that affect my setup other than bug fixes. At a couple of grand a year, I have opted out for quite a while. Now it appears that one of those bug fixes will solve a problem I've been having. The cost to get back in the game is over 12k.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 1:02 am
OleManRiver
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You might try SALSA. Now it is a geodetic based least squares program. Designed at the university of Texas at Austin. I don’t know if it would do for your needs. But it is free. They do have a fairly in depth manual I believe pdf. Just google SALSA least squares look for the link to university of Texas lab. Not hard to find. You are into the splitting hairs stuff.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 1:25 am

MightyMoe
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It is annoying to pay each year for a program that doesn't change in any appreciable way.

TBC and Auto-cad do "upgrade", however, I still have Auto-cad 2000 on my machine and use it once in a while cause I like the speed of doing a few of my tasks compared to 2024 which I also have.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 1:27 am
(@bstrand)
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Yeah, it's a pretty serious scam system, imo.

I have a TBC license and the annual maintenance fee is about $1000 and you can use the software no problem even if you don't pay the fee. I've heard they'll let you pay the maintenance fee every other year which would knock the cost down to about $500 a year, but if you skip the maintenance for longer than that then you'll have to pay full price (~4k) to bring your software up to date.

12K sounds ridiculous; I mean at this point just buy a brand new copy of the software as I'm sure it's less than that, right?

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 1:35 am
Bruce Small
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My two cents as a general comment; Never give a client the impression you are sticking it to them - they don't like it, and they will remember. A "maintenance fee" when there is really nothing to maintain falls in the category.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 3:21 am
bob-freeman
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This does not view as I had intended. I'm not sure why it came in squashed. Sorry about that

But as true today as it was 25-30 years ago.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 4:42 am
holy-cow
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@bob-freeman

That is precisely how operations ran at the Government facility where I was once employed by the Contractor operating the facility. Much of our work was designing improvements to existing equipment. The Government paid dearly for those designs. Then they paid us dearly to debug the new equipment that could not perform up to specifications. Then they paid even more to re-debug the latest design.

I knew of one excellent engineer who quietly was terminated about a month after he made a last-minute determination of a major flaw in the original design of a specific machine and announced this fact out to anyone who would listen. The Government learned of this and demanded the Contractor fix the flaw at the Contractor's own expense.

 
Posted : May 3, 2024 5:24 am

john-hamilton
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Another troublesome software...Global Mapper, but a different issue. I use it a lot, and have been using it for many many years. I always keep up to date on the maintenance agreement, as they do update at least annually. And it is absolutely essential for my field and office work.

Before it was bought by Blue Marble, it wasn't a problem to run it on my desktop and my laptop, which makes sense since it is used both in the office and in the field. But BM licenses it for only single PC. So I bought a floating license, which I can transfer between my desktop and laptop ($899 versus $599)

They do have a USB dongle option for $899, which my employee would like to get. Up til now he has always had GM on the laptop, and nothing on the desktop in the office. So you would think that you could upgrade to a USB dongle for $300. Nope, gotta buy a whole new license for $899.

I like the software, but I hate their licensing model. If only there was a good alternative...but there isn't.

 
Posted : May 6, 2024 5:20 am
dave-o
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Does GM have functionality the you need that QGIS doesn't?

 
Posted : May 6, 2024 10:09 am
james-w-johnston
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MESSAGE FROM MICROSURVEY

Hello Mr. Hamilton, I'm sorry, but there seems to have been a misunderstanding here. STAR*NET is sold only as a "Perpetual License" product.

The maintenance reminder is simply an alert that because the maintenance has expired you won't be able to install newer versions. You will be able to continue to use STAR*NET for as long as it works on your hardware.

 
Posted : May 10, 2024 5:06 am
OleManRiver
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Yeah the one in TBC is very similar. At first I thought maybe they bought them out. I started using that as I was tasked with checking plats for multiple offices multiple states. So I would print the report and mark up the changes needed and the LS folks loved it because they could se it and see what they needed to pass on to the cad tech. Plus I would keep those projects so once changes were made I could edit only that line or bearing etc. re plot the report with the little cheapy map and send back. Was a good system vs trying to emailed type all the info.

 
Posted : May 10, 2024 8:09 am
(@pfirmst)
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We've been using SALSA for two years, the results are excellent. It gets a little slow once you hit 18,000 observations, we've included GPS vectors & covariance matrices, total station, level and even laser scanner observations into the analysis.

There's another least squares analysis package, which has an unlimited number of observations, I haven't tried it however. https://github.com/icsm-au/DynAdjust

 
Posted : May 10, 2024 9:18 am

(@minbarwinkle)
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Software has been getting worse and worse and the worst part is that we are being forced to use the newer, worse software.

I was very happy to use Windows 7 because it worked just fine. But one too many programs dropped support for it and getting a new PC means you have to use the newer software.

I would happily pay for software licence on a few conditions:

- maintain previous versions, if I'm happy with version 6.3.4 of something and have everything setup the way I want to, let me use that in perpetuity

- allow users to disable features they never use, or better yet disable them by default to streamline the interaction. AutoCAD is particularly guilty of this with their neverending options for this, that and the other. I'm sure some people use most of the functions but the majority have a set number of functions they use that serves them very well

- pricing, this ties into my last point. You are being charged for the whole product even though you only need a fraction of it. If companies were honest, they would charge you on the features you use not on the bulk value

- EOL (end of life) should be done in way that the end user or paying customer doesn't feel betrayed.

If the company ends up dropping support or discontinuing a product that people paid for, they should be forced to open up the source code and allow the community to maintain it

I know I'm being unrealistic but I don't think I'm unreasonable and if politicians would understand how software works, some of these would have a chance of being made into law. It just reminds me again that the legal profession is grossly overrepresented in politics and we would be better served if some engineers, doctors or coders could get in there and make laws with first-hand experience.

 
Posted : May 10, 2024 11:02 am
jimcox
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Dunno,

But I'm intrigued with the similarities with how IBM 'sold' software in the late 1950 and early-mid 1960's

 
Posted : May 12, 2024 8:18 pm
john-hamilton
(@john-hamilton)
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sorry if I was not clear in my post...I have no complaints at all about the Star*Net licensing model. I do keep up with the maintenance, as they do issue new releases at least annually. And I do know that it doesn't "expire" if I don't keep up with the yearly maintenance agreements.

 
Posted : May 13, 2024 12:40 am
jmcnicholspls
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Several years ago, I had Geographic Calculator when Blue Marble moved from the dongle to the floating license on my server. Now I needed two products updated, software and license manager. The upgrade was about $800 for a single license. When I cancelled my subscription, I was asked why. I explained the costs involved. The salesperson asked why I did not get the "Small Shop" license. I never bothered to ask I just said goodbye. They do not list the options, it's only "get a quote", so you do not know what your options are. Blue Marble's biggest market used to be Oil and Gas, money isn't a problem in that business sector.

 
Posted : May 13, 2024 10:02 pm