I agree that in order to be a Professional Land Surveyor, one needs to have the education, experience, and good mentorship. My opinion is the education does not need to be in the form of formal classroom education. I am a self educated man, and consider myself a d@^^n good surveyor. Because I am a self educated man, I, in the eyes of the Florida law, am less professional than a four-year grad that has no idea about how to write a scope of services, draft a professional services agreement, or deal with potential, former, or current clients regarding their concerns or needs related to their land survey? No!!!!
If your son or daughter came to you and said they wanted to be a PLS like you how would you advise them to become licensed? Would you suggest going to a four year program or would you suggest for them to go the experience route like you did?
It's what Florida said. Furthermore I believe they implied that the degreed licensed surveyors were not professional, either, because the experience/apprenticeship path remained open.
Thats why Florida threw us out of the Department of Business and Professional Regulation and stuck us in the Department Of Agriculture of all places. ?????ÿ
To me, surveying is a profession. And I might add, a very well respected profession at that.?ÿ It's a profession because each and every one of us works everyday to provide a much needed service to our community.?ÿ Whether you have a four year degree, a two year degree or no degree at all we all have one thing in common.?ÿ To provide the best quality survey possible.?ÿ We are recognized by the courts as expert witnesses.?ÿ That alone speaks volumes.
@half-bubble so you're saying that a non degreed person who passes the same national and state exams as a degreed person is a tradesman and not a professional, despite what the license says?
Unfortunately, and to my dismay I just had a fellow PLS tell me this.
@rover83 I have hired two people in their mid twenties with little field experience but a four year degree in Land Surveying.?ÿ Both rich in "book learning" theory, both quick to challenge what and how I wanted things done to achieve the desired results and both quick to point out that their Professor told them something different.?ÿ Attempting to discuss the hows and whys with them and demonstrating the outcome was always a fruitless process because it varied from their text book studies and what their Professor's less plan said should happen.?ÿ Needless to say, neither lasted long and I know that one of them still maintains that rigid attitude and has been let go from several firms in the area because of it.?ÿ I know this because he keeps using me as a reference when applying for new jobs, for some strange reason.
My point in all of the above, and this is from my personal perspective, is that requiring a four year degree was, and still is, counter productive to what was hoped to be accomplished.?ÿ
No doubt there are degree holders who are too big for their britches, but I could say the exact same things about the non-degreed folks I have hired, who question everything and complain that that "wasn't how they used to do it". A lot of them have been working for 20+ years and should know better by that point. At least the younger ones have the hubris of youth as an excuse.
When I went back to school to get my four-year in geomatics, none of my professors insisted that there was a single way to do things. They focused on the critical fundamentals and how they all worked together to create a solid base for practicing surveying. Every one of them would explain how the theory (legal/scientific/business/mathematics) worked, then say "...but in practice, here's how it typically works...and your PLS is in charge" Maybe it's a regional thing.
My experience with degreed hires has been different than yours. If they question something that I want them to do, it's far easier for me to explain exactly why I want something done a particular way. I'll sit them down and write out the math or draw diagrams for them if I have to. But when I do, 95% of them snap to it right away, because they learned the underlying concepts in school and can see that I'm not just forcing them to do something for no reason. I'll still point out that others may do it differently, and why. I also tell them that at some point if they come up with a better way of doing things and can show me why, I'll make a change.
It's good to establish that I know what the hell I'm talking about, show them that I'm not just a mindless corporate whip-cracker, and build a bit of trust and respect. I hated the "because I said so" attitude that many of my employers took when I was younger.
I was self-taught until licensure, then went back and got the four-year. The problem with degrees is not that they are inherently bad, but our system of bringing young folks from secondary education to licensure is inconsistent, and higher education has been co-opted by the for-profit industry. It's still incredibly beneficial for those who take advantage of it and put in the work during the schooling process.
I know I sound like a broken record, but engineers don't rail against four-year degrees, or consider it counter-productive. I'd like to think we're able to handle similar requirements without throwing up our hands and saying "it's too hard".
Professionals need both standardized education and mentorship, it's not an either-or proposition. Both of them complement each other.
They focused on the critical fundamentals and how they all worked together to create a solid base for practicing surveying. Every one of them would explain how the theory (legal/scientific/business/mathematics) worked, then say "...but in practice, here's how it typically works...and your PLS is in charge"
That was pretty much my experience in school as well.
If they question something that I want them to do, it's far easier for me to explain exactly why I want something done a particular way. I'll sit them down and write out the math or draw diagrams for them if I have to. But when I do, 95% of them snap to it right away, because they learned the underlying concepts in school and can see that I'm not just forcing them to do something for no reason. I'll still point out that others may do it differently, and why. I also tell them that at some point if they come up with a better way of doing things and can show me why, I'll make a change.
This sounds pretty amazing to me and I would have killed to be in a situation like that my first several years out of school.
I used to occasionally point out a difference between what I learned in school and what a PLS was telling me to do.?ÿ I didn't do it to try to embarrass them, or diminish their knowledge or experience, I would do it to provoke a conversation about that topic so I could learn.?ÿ When you are fresh out of school you don't know what you don't know, so when a situation pops up where you are presented with 2 sets of information (what you learned VS what a PLS is saying) then you know there is something to be learned here.?ÿ Unfortunately, in my experience usually the PLS reacted defensively, would get angry or snippy and I would regret opening my mouth in the first place.
I don't really ask questions like that anymore because it never turns into the learning experience that I hope it would.?ÿ If I ask a question now a days it's usually either at a conference where I know people are there to answer questions without raining piss and vinegar down on me, or I'll ask someone who has demonstrated the level of patience necessary to answer the question thoroughly and thoughtfully.
In Georgia, if I am not mistaken, there is still a non-degreed route for Professional Engineers. Only within the last few years have Georgia Surveyors technically been allowed to use "Professional" in front of Land Surveyor. I have a few strong opinions about education vs experience. First, take the "vs" out and replace with "and". Secondly, every person needs a slightly different ratio of one to the other to be well rounded, in my opinion.?ÿ
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
@stacy-carroll I believe you are correct about there being a "possibility" of getting an engineers license through experience only.?ÿ The catch to that is "experience?ÿacceptable?ÿto the Board".
@stacy-carroll California has never required a degree for engineers (or surveyors).?ÿ Equivalent work experience credit is available for those that do have a engineering (or surveying) degree, but it is not required.?ÿ More licensed engineers in CA than the next 4-5 states combined.?ÿ Guess they are not "professionals" despite the title of 'Professional Engineer' or PE which is the protected title in law.?ÿ Same for surveyors...PLS
PLS or RLS,?ÿ Education or Mentored Experience? In the end it is the quality of the licensed individual that makes people respect the practitioner and the industry. One licensed hack can make it harder for all the talented surveyors.
Even if you use filtered water to fill the pool, occasionally you need to add some bleach. Den
