I've gotten out of construction staking over the last ten years, mainly because of the aggravation. But apparently my number is still in a lot of contractor's Rolodex and they call from time to time. We chat about who's dead and who's broke and who made it big, but I always decline any new endeavors.
Last week one contractor called that I had declined a few weeks earlier. He wanted to know if knew any "young" surveyors that he could contact. I couldn't think of anybody right off the bat...but I was curious as to why he specifically wanted someone "young". His answer was unexpected.
"Because they're cheap."
Good answer, I guess. And probably accurate enough.
Now, after mulling it over in my hardened-artery brain, I'm wondering why he didn't think there is enough difference in the ability or performance between "young" surveyors and "old". Is there really not enough difference to our clients to notice? May be...may be. So, for the last three or four days I've been comparing young and old surveyors in my mind. And what I've determined really surprises me.
Right off the bat a lot of people are going to say that an older surveyor has more experience. While that's probably true, does it matter? I mean we all work using the same rules and mathematical theorems, don't we? I'm guessing that the "experience" card probably matters only to clients that know the value of experience; meaning older clients. While an older (or more experienced) surveyor may have insight on pricing or business management; I believe the public probably views us in a similar light. I mean you're either licensed, or you're not. And from the call I received, to at least one client the only measureable or obvious difference was the price. And I definitely do charge more now than when I was younger...
So why is it that a number of younger surveyors regularly call me up and pick my brain? The time that has transpired since I took the exam is almost a lifetime. You would think those rules would be a little fresher in a younger surveyor's brain than mine. The term "I've forgotten more than you've learned" really has a ring to it as you approach seventy in this business. Not to mention the simple fact that younger surveyors most assuredly have an edge when it comes to drive or stamina in the field. And, hopefully, younger surveyors still have "something to prove" like we all did when we were younger.
So I've still been perplexed for days pondering the difference between a younger surveyor and an older surveyor. And then this morning, at 3:12 AM, it came to me. I sat up in bed like I had just remembered the name of some actor on a sixties sit-com that had been escaping me. The difference is obvious. While all the studying and learning required to attain licensure drills into young heads all these rules I've mention, it is not knowing the rules that is most important.
Knowing the rules IS somewhat important; a necessary key to properly assembling a survey. But, as we all know, there are rules...and there are exceptions. While both young and old surveyors know the rules; I believe our experience has gifted us with the knowledge and applicability of the exceptions.
Therein lies the difference.
I guess when a young surveyor realizes this he can start charging more too. B-)
I must be older than my years, because it seems like I am always hearing that I am "too expensive".
I've taken a couple jobs where I did not charge enough, and once you do that a few times I think the price goes up. Maybe that's the kind of experience they need more of. It really shouldn't take more than one or two of those provided they are actually doing the work properly...
Dan Patterson, post: 357874, member: 1179 wrote: I must be older than my years, because it seems like I am always hearing that I am "too expensive".
I've taken a couple jobs where I did not charge enough, and once you do that a few times I think the price goes up. Maybe that's the kind of experience they need more of. It really shouldn't take more than one or two of those provided they are actually doing the work properly...
I was right there with you Dan. I always told people I wasn't the cheapest guy in town.
paden cash, post: 357869, member: 20 wrote: While both young and old surveyors know the rules; I believe our experience has gifted us with the knowledge and applicability of the exceptions.
I agree with this. What I've gotten from discussions with the seasoned guys in my area is that they take a bigger picture approach to resolving boundary problems. They don't get absorbed in the math (Well, some do, but we don't consult with them often).
By the way, I'm young, and we ain't cheap.
Some contractors may be looking for "young" surveyors because in general they take advantage of available equipment and techniques to get a job done quicker / "cheaper" than a "old" surveyor. Ex. Old surveyor shows up and needs to stake some building corners. He finds the base line being used and goes about turning 90's to set a few hub & tacks. Because of line of site issues and having to set up so many times it takes him and his helper all day.
Young surveyor shows up. Checks his control, sets the hubs radially from one, maybe two points, does some checks and he and his robot are done by noon.
The same thing is accomplished but its "cheaper" for the client. The young surveyor my even charge more per hour than the old. The question is how fast can you accurately stake these corners.
The contractor might being looking for "young" techniques it doesn't matter how old the Surveyor is.
Just a though.
VRMTSRVY, post: 357902, member: 7295 wrote: Some contractors may be looking for "young" surveyors because in general they take advantage of available equipment and techniques to get a job done quicker / "cheaper" than a "old" surveyor. Ex. Old surveyor shows up and needs to stake some building corners. He finds the base line being used and goes about turning 90's to set a few hub & tacks. Because of line of site issues and having to set up so many times it takes him and his helper all day.
Young surveyor shows up. Checks his control, sets the hubs radially from one, maybe two points, does some checks and he and his robot are done by noon.
The same thing is accomplished but its "cheaper" for the client. The young surveyor my even charge more per hour than the old. The question is how fast can you accurately stake these corners.
The contractor might being looking for "young" techniques it doesn't matter how old the Surveyor is.
Just a though.
Excuse me. I heard that argument over 30 years ago. Just because our hair turned gray or in my case loose does not mean we quit thinking decades ago. Radial layout is old news. Some years ago at a seminar, someone asked Dean Goodman (the G in C&G) what his software could do that he could not do on his HP41. His answer was " I can do everything with a pencil, but I choose not to". I want all the advantages that I can get if no other reason than I get tired much quicker. The bigger difference is that older surveyor understands his liability laying out the incomplete plans that most designers turn out these days and charge accordingly. Rarely do I see plans that could be staked without the CAD files.
I'm wondering if you buy the latest and greatest equipment, but charge the same hourly rate as you did before, the
VRMTSRVY, post: 357902, member: 7295 wrote: Some contractors may be looking for "young" surveyors because in general they take advantage of available equipment and techniques to get a job done quicker / "cheaper" than a "old" surveyor. Ex. Old surveyor shows up and needs to stake some building corners. He finds the base line being used and goes about turning 90's to set a few hub & tacks. Because of line of site issues and having to set up so many times it takes him and his helper all day.
Young surveyor shows up. Checks his control, sets the hubs radially from one, maybe two points, does some checks and he and his robot are done by noon.
The same thing is accomplished but its "cheaper" for the client. The young surveyor my even charge more per hour than the old. The question is how fast can you accurately stake these corners.
The contractor might being looking for "young" techniques it doesn't matter how old the Surveyor is.
Just a though.
I'm wondering if you buy the latest and greatest equipment, but charge almost the same hourly rate as you did before, then why did you buy it? You and the older surveyor would be making the same amount per year, but you're out quite a few grand buying that robot. Set your prices higher.
lmbrls, post: 357915, member: 6823 wrote: Excuse me. I heard that argument over 30 years ago. Just because our hair turned gray or in my case loose does not mean we quit thinking decades ago. Radial layout is old news. Some years ago at a seminar, someone asked Dean Goodman (the G in C&G) what his software could do that he could not do on his HP41. His answer was " I can do everything with a pencil, but I choose not to". I want all the advantages that I can get if no other reason than I get tired much quicker. The bigger difference is that older surveyor understands his liability laying out the incomplete plans that most designers turn out these days and charge accordingly. Rarely do I see plans that could be staked without the CAD files.
Why would I want to stake something out without a cad file? If I get a pdf or hand drawn I'm still drafting it in cad before hitting the field.
Call me 'young', 'incompetent' or a 'button pusher' all you want but why assume the added responsibility of having to calculate in the field? I'll gladly spend the extra time in the office so I can hit the ground running at the site without needing to make calculation errors on site.
As for the Original post, I am not the cheapest, nor do I claim to be. We give great personal attention to each client. You can walk right into my office and ask me anything or ask to speak about your survey. Gladly. But no the price is not the cheapest. I would say we are high price but very good.
When a builder figures out he can save a lot of money, they leave. It stinks. But hey, I also don't have to hear about price complaints anymore. But they always come back. Always. Bc the other surveyor isn't just letting them come in whenever they want and ask them to do this or that. The other surveyor might have a shorter wait time as well, but hes not as helpful, accessible, or as easy to work with.
The technology theory could hold water. I'm young. I love technology. Me and my robot do very fast but accurate layout. Have I ever ever made a mistake? Who hasn't. But in the last 8 years I can only think of 2. And they were not big errors. One was an elevation. I read -1 instead of 1. Prolly didn't see the negative due to dirt on the screen. Problem was solved and rectified before the excavation was complete. I don't rush. The technology has made the work easier and faster.
So that def could be something. Other than that the money could be true for some.
Problem is when Mr young guy charges 600 for his lot survey, his work piles up. Not long later he starts raising prices and being picky as his schedule can only fit so much. Might as well do 8 surveys a week at $1000 than 8 at $600.
Take it from one who knows. The Young surveyor is the best.
Lowballing for market-share? Old guy: established practice. Young guy: maybe hungrier for work?
Very interesting discussion. The question boils down to what should the client be looking for when selecting a surveyor. That leads to the ever-present and applicable answer: It depends.
Does the client need a cookie-cutter? That is, one who is willing to do the exact same thing over and over but nothing else. There is nothing wrong with this. There is a need for this category of surveyor in certain areas. An example would be the building boom need for thousands of lots to be monumented although designed by someone else. It is nearly all mechanics, not alternative solutions and weeks of title research.
Does the client need a resolver? That is, one who explores deeply into the survey issues, title issues, quasi-legal issues and develops the most strongly supported final answer as to where the boundaries should be placed.
Does the client need a construction staker with many years of working with and around numerous construction firms, governmental personnel and is a strong strategist in the field?
Does the client need somebody, anybody, just somebody who will be at their beck and call 24/7 and willing to be paid after they get paid?
Does the client need specific skills for their project or special equipment with certain capability ranges? That might be someone who does BIM work, photogrammetry, aerial surveying, or industrial precision work.
For these and other potential categories of "surveyors", is age or years of experience a significant factor? Maybe yes, maybe no. Arguments can be made in both directions for most categories.
As for me, I find myself being more selective about who is going to get my dollars as I age and have a few more dollars to work with. For example, my medical doctor is an M.D. I will not have a D.O. or a Physicians Assistant or an alphabet soup (ARNP, for example) as my primary medical provider. He/she must be an M.D. In Boondocks, USA, that is not an easy choice to make. I drive 55 miles one way to her office. It's only 11 miles to the two nearest Physicians Assistant alternatives or 17 miles to multiple alternatives other than M.D.
When I was 35, single and raising three children such choices weren't really possible. I had to go with whatever amounted to being the path of least resistance or difficulty. Juggling my work locations and commitments to getting the children to and from their medical appointments was a major headache.
Surveying clients can be extremely diverse, so it's next to impossible to declare a single response to the basic question presented.
paden cash, post: 357869, member: 20 wrote: I've gotten out of construction staking over the last ten years, mainly because of the aggravation. But apparently my number is still in a lot of contractor's Rolodex and they call from time to time. We chat about who's dead and who's broke and who made it big, but I always decline any new endeavors.
Last week one contractor called that I had declined a few weeks earlier. He wanted to know if knew any "young" surveyors that he could contact. I couldn't think of anybody right off the bat...but I was curious as to why he specifically wanted someone "young". His answer was unexpected.
"Because they're cheap."
Good answer, I guess. And probably accurate enough.
Now, after mulling it over in my hardened-artery brain, I'm wondering why he didn't think there is enough difference in the ability or performance between "young" surveyors and "old". Is there really not enough difference to our clients to notice? May be...may be. So, for the last three or four days I've been comparing young and old surveyors in my mind. And what I've determined really surprises me.
Right off the bat a lot of people are going to say that an older surveyor has more experience. While that's probably true, does it matter? I mean we all work using the same rules and mathematical theorems, don't we? I'm guessing that the "experience" card probably matters only to clients that know the value of experience; meaning older clients. While an older (or more experienced) surveyor may have insight on pricing or business management; I believe the public probably views us in a similar light. I mean you're either licensed, or you're not. And from the call I received, to at least one client the only measureable or obvious difference was the price. And I definitely do charge more now than when I was younger...
So why is it that a number of younger surveyors regularly call me up and pick my brain? The time that has transpired since I took the exam is almost a lifetime. You would think those rules would be a little fresher in a younger surveyor's brain than mine. The term "I've forgotten more than you've learned" really has a ring to it as you approach seventy in this business. Not to mention the simple fact that younger surveyors most assuredly have an edge when it comes to drive or stamina in the field. And, hopefully, younger surveyors still have "something to prove" like we all did when we were younger.
So I've still been perplexed for days pondering the difference between a younger surveyor and an older surveyor. And then this morning, at 3:12 AM, it came to me. I sat up in bed like I had just remembered the name of some actor on a sixties sit-com that had been escaping me. The difference is obvious. While all the studying and learning required to attain licensure drills into young heads all these rules I've mention, it is not knowing the rules that is most important.
Knowing the rules IS somewhat important; a necessary key to properly assembling a survey. But, as we all know, there are rules...and there are exceptions. While both young and old surveyors know the rules; I believe our experience has gifted us with the knowledge and applicability of the exceptions.
Therein lies the difference.
I guess when a young surveyor realizes this he can start charging more too. B-)
I done a lot of construction surveying when I was ÛÏyounger than nowÛ. My reasons that this kind of work is for young surveyors are: Their knees still work not having been scarred by being on them in hard gravel for many years. Their necks haven't been operated on from pounding the heck out of stuff to get it into compacted ground. Their bank accounts haven't been drained from mistakes they believed will never be made. They are hungry enough for the work that they don't really realize the risk to doing this sort of work. They usually don't need a license and a license doesn't matter anyway, if you screw up in construction they want money not your license. Mostly they do work cheaper without the benefit of learning the hard way that previously written.
YUP, that's just a few of the things that make construction surveying a young surveyors job. If you are going to do it get a good job with a construction outfit, keep your great pay and avoid the risk!
LRDay, post: 357990, member: 571 wrote: I done a lot of construction surveying when I was ÛÏyounger than nowÛ. My reasons that this kind of work is for young surveyors are: Their knees still work not having been scarred by being on them in hard gravel for many years. Their necks haven't been operated on from pounding the heck out of stuff to get it into compacted ground. Their bank accounts haven't been drained from mistakes they believed will never be made. They are hungry enough for the work that they don't really realize the risk to doing this sort of work. They usually don't need a license and a license doesn't matter anyway, if you screw up in construction they want money not your license. Mostly they do work cheaper without the benefit of learning the hard way that previously written.
YUP, that's just a few of the things that make construction surveying a young surveyors job. If you are going to do it get a good job with a construction outfit, keep your great pay and avoid the risk!
I agree, Mr. Day. I use to love the smell of tack coat in the morning....smelled like victory..
But arthritis, bursitis, cataracts, fear of melanoma and feet that just flat hurt keep me off the jobsites nowadays...:-/
Interesting...I am a "young" surveyor. I don't really do construction staking. I work for a engineering company and we do occasionally stake out smaller projects we designed, but that's it. Why? Mainly because it sucks. I don't enjoy it. Low profit margin. Low ballers. And I am tired of all the contractors and their "surveyor's" pulling out their rovers and telling me they aren't hitting our hubs? I am tired of contractor surveyor's trying to tell me I am wrong, and they can even read cross sections or understand super elevations and vertical curves - just a button pusher using a model created by someone else. It's not worth it. Let the contractors do it all - good riddance.
Foremost, I agree with other posts though, that most younger surveyors haven't had the chance to pay for concrete, sewer pipe, etc. which provides an excellent dose of liability, I mean reality, that NO contractor is your friend and you will be the first one blamed for anything.
Rich., post: 357957, member: 10450 wrote: Why would I want to stake something out without a cad file? If I get a pdf or hand drawn I'm still drafting it in cad before hitting the field.
Call me 'young', 'incompetent' or a 'button pusher' all you want but why assume the added responsibility of having to calculate in the field? I'll gladly spend the extra time in the office so I can hit the ground running at the site without needing to make calculation errors on site.
I would want a CAD file as well. The point is that many times the hard copy which is what the Designer has certified does not show all the dimensions need to stake a project with the out dated baseline method. The liability is in that the hard copy is certified and the CAD file is not. No offense toward the surveyor using the latest technology was intended. Unlike the original post toward old farts. Using the latest technology does not mean someone is incompetent. Far from it. It makes them smart. This is not a function of age.
LRDay, post: 357990, member: 571 wrote:
YUP, that's just a few of the things that make construction surveying a young surveyors job. If you are going to do it get a good job with a construction outfit, keep your great pay and avoid the risk!
Definitely the way to go. I work for a construction contractor and do all my "professional surveying" on my own. I don't think I would really want to stake anything out under my own business. (Maybe some small one and done type stuff, but sometimes those can be more treacherous.)
I usually avoid generalizations. Our Profession is chock full of exceptions. That being said...
Selection of a Surveyor is a balancing act. Get someone young enough to still have a working body, but old enough to have the seasoning to run a stress free project. The proper 'age' isn't a number, it's a status. Kind of like 'what's a good corner'....
thebionicman, post: 358067, member: 8136 wrote: I usually avoid generalizations. Our Profession is chock full of exceptions. That being said...
Selection of a Surveyor is a balancing act. Get someone young enough to still have a working body, but old enough to have the seasoning to run a stress free project. The proper 'age' isn't a number, it's a status. Kind of like 'what's a good corner'....
Well put.
You know, I've really enjoyed the responses to my original post. I wasn't trying to differentiate between 'old' or 'young' surveyors. I just thought the contractor's reasoning was a little "off the wall" and couldn't for the life of me figure out how someone could tell who's old and who's not, or WHY it would be important in the first place.
The one response that I liked the most was from VRMTSRVY. He was wondering if it was a scenario comparing an old guy slamming tacked hubs for building corners and then wrapping 90s (I pictured an old K&E with a plumb bob swaying in the wind beneath it) at each corner OR someone younger using other means (gps or ts) to place them radially. That one made me laugh....like how damned old do people think I am??!! 😀
Lots of good responses. I really didn't mean to imply that 'young' surveyors don't charge enough. I noticed some defended their prices. That's a good thing....NOBODY ever wants to be the lowest price. You'll spend the whole time trying to find whatever it was that you missed...
Tommy Young, post: 357961, member: 703 wrote: Take it from one who knows. The Young surveyor is the best.
But the Best surveyor isn't young anymore.
Larry Best, post: 358142, member: 763 wrote: But the Best surveyor isn't young anymore.
Sure would be hard for Young to argue against Best
