What are your thoughts on contracting survey crews?
I am not referring to the instance where a firm hires temp crew members through an agency and work in their office and use the firms equipment etc...
I am referring to contracting the field work to a person/crew who has their own equipment and does the field data collection and send the data and report etc...back to the licensee for whatever purpose (let's say boundary work in this example). Then the crew moves on to another project for a different firm.
Seems some firms believe this is acceptable practice - I think it contradicts the licensees professional obligation of direct supervision and control (specifically: methods, training, oversight, and an interest/stake in doing what is best for the firm). Some statutes/rules specifically address this issue, many others do not. As a minimum, I think it violates the spirit of the statutes/rules.
I think a licensee could get into trouble if it was questioned by a licensing board. Hopefully licensing boards address this issue in the future.
In NC you can not contract with an unlicensed crew, you can only contract with other licensed professionals.
Surveying the Midwest, post: 357906, member: 10952 wrote: What are your thoughts on contracting survey crews?
I am not referring to the instance where a firm hires temp crew members through an agency and work in their office and use the firms equipment etc...
I am referring to contracting the field work to a person/crew who has their own equipment and does the field data collection and send the data and report etc...back to the licensee for whatever purpose (let's say boundary work in this example). Then the crew moves on to another project for a different firm.
Seems some firms believe this is acceptable practice - I think it contradicts the licensees professional obligation of direct supervision and control (specifically: methods, training, oversight, and an interest/stake in doing what is best for the firm). Some statutes/rules specifically address this issue, many others do not. As a minimum, I think it violates the spirit of the statutes/rules.
I think a licensee could get into trouble if it was questioned by a licensing board. Hopefully licensing boards address this issue in the future.
That practice is illegal in Arizona - the people performing the work must be under the direct supervision of the Registrant, ie. an employee.
Good to hear that is spelled out in NC.
Even in this instance if the crew provided information to another licensee to complete a boundary plat/map (and signed) would the signing licensee still have a potential issue regarding direct supervision and control etc... Who knows what the background/training level is of the crew, if the crew did proper field work, properly reviewed/interpreted field evidence, etc...There is no ongoing relationship between the crew and the licensee. Seems ultimate responsibility still rests with the person signing the deliverable.
Good to hear that in AZ Jim.
I have tired using contract crews before. They were a group of laid off employees from other firms.
The important thing is that you must retain control over their work.
If you go down that path, be sure put in writing that they are to follow your written instructions at all times and also to place in your agreement that you are paying them $X rate that consisted of Y% for their time and Z% for their data files of the projects they work on. I usually used 50/50 or 40/60.
Don't feel bad about going out and checking their work or being out there the entire time, it is your duty to maintain control and know how they are performing the survey.
The fail of these locals was always that at some point they refused to give raw data files and original GPS files to me. That meant that they would not get full pay and still they did not offer or deliver copies of their files.
They also attempt to steal your clients and offer more work for less money by going another route or using another surveyor.
Bottom line, I don't recommend going down this path.
It would probably be better to hire the main person owing the equipment as a temporary employee and rent his equipment if you don't have enough equipment for another crew.
If you have the equipment, hire the guys qualified to operate your equipment.
0.02
We contract a crew from time to time to a surveyor nearby who, when he gets behind, will have done the research and we do the field work and he gets all the data and I maintain a copy of the data, just in case. We also have hired contract crews before.
In EVERY case, we are licensed and sending a crew to someone or I'm renting a crew from another survey shop. Not folks off the street who happen to have some gear. That's a recipe for disaster.
Kris
Thanks for the reply.
Seems to be a close working relationship in this case. Let's say the surveyor signing the plat gets sued and there was an major blunder/error in the field work process/evidence evaluation etc...He claims the crew/other firm didn't do proper field work. Guessing he is on the hook regardless.
If I was an attorney I would be asking "Mr. PLS please explain direct control and supervision and how you develop and train your field personnel to act as your representative in the field to apply proper procedures and evaluation of the evidence under your license"? Etc... Not judging by any means, just saying there could be a can of worms with this relationship.
Better yet, how about a firm located 1000 miles from where the field work is taking place and the crew gets an address and submits the data and never hears from the licensee?
When I owned my own company, I performed a lot of subcontract work for other firms that were too busy to do their own fieldwork. Sometimes the product was field data, and sometimes it was a finished product, on their title block with my company name being listed as a sub consultant.
The difference was I was licensed, and turned over copies of my raw data files, point files, research, etc., and I of course was fully licensed and insured. It depended on the client as to what we submitted to them. Often times, I would even draw up my fieldwork so they would not have any problems interpreting my data, even if they did not request it. I just felt it was part of what I should have done as a professional.
One thing I was always, and I mean always, clear about was when I was working as a sub consultant, I made sure any interaction with my client's customer (their client), that I was a sub consultant, and that any business dealings had to go through them. I always held that opinion, and it served me well when I owned my business. I never "picked up" any clients from my friends that hired me as a sub consultant.
If done properly, and with someone who is properly equipped and licensed, it can be a great situation, or it can be a nightmare if the individual is not on the up and up.
Thanks Jimmy...
My concern is primarily when a firm contracts out the field work portion only and then relies on that information, from a distance, to prepare and sign/stamp a final survey in-house. I am aware of a few national firms that do this type of work and I think it violates most licensing statutes/rules in my humble opinion. If the "crew" is also licensed and does this field work under these circumstances is he/she perpetuating a violation of the statutes/rules in that state? The answer is probably "it depends" on what state specifically.
Doing field to finish work as a sub where you sign/stamp shouldn't be an issue from what I understand.
Surveying the Midwest, post: 357906, member: 10952 wrote: What are your thoughts on contracting survey crews?
I am not referring to the instance where a firm hires temp crew members through an agency and work in their office and use the firms equipment etc...
I am referring to contracting the field work to a person/crew who has their own equipment and does the field data collection and send the data and report etc...back to the licensee for whatever purpose (let's say boundary work in this example). Then the crew moves on to another project for a different firm.
Seems some firms believe this is acceptable practice - I think it contradicts the licensees professional obligation of direct supervision and control (specifically: methods, training, oversight, and an interest/stake in doing what is best for the firm). Some statutes/rules specifically address this issue, many others do not. As a minimum, I think it violates the spirit of the statutes/rules.
I think a licensee could get into trouble if it was questioned by a licensing board. Hopefully licensing boards address this issue in the future.
The following is quoted from an http://www.peps.ohio.gov/BoardOpinions/BoardOpinion|20090430.aspx&apos ;">Ohio Board of Registration Opinion | 2009-04-30
[INDENT=1]An unlicensed individual or a firm not registered in accordance with ORC 4733.16, may not offer, provide or contract for surveying services. Even if the unlicensed individual, who is not working for a licensed firm, were to engage a professional surveyor to assist with the project, the unlicensed individual would be in violation of ORC 4733 by offering and/or contracting to provide surveying services.[/INDENT]
While this opinion was made in reference to construction staking the full context of the opinion is that employees of general contractors may work from control established by professional surveyors. However, anyone contracting specifically for surveying services must be a licensed professional surveyor.
I do this all the time with another PLS I used to work with. We both have our own practices, and I worked under him at another firm before I was licensed. He does a ton of small jobs and sometimes he gets too many at once, so I will execute the fieldwork and do some drafting for him if he gets overwhelmed. I think that is a bit different. I can't see trusting someone who doesn't really work for you to do the work if you don't know them very well or don't have experience working together.
A couple of my biggest clients are PLS's. I always hand over a map or report just like I would if I were working for the public.
Not much difference to me honestly.
If I subbed out my work to another surveyor or if I contracted a crew*** assuming the crew I contracted came to my office and got briefed on the job and what I want them to do procedurally. I wouldn't agree if it was just call and give and address and they send you the data. That wouldn't fly.
I also wouldn't want to take more work than I can handle and call a local surveyor to see if they would like to do the fieldwork for me. I feel they would then just be like "why would u take more work knowing u can't handle it?" Just pass on the work and let the client hire another local surveyor to begin with. It's the same thought I would have if I was contacted to do another's field work.
Surveying the Midwest, post: 357906, member: 10952 wrote: What are your thoughts on contracting survey crews?
...I am referring to contracting the field work to a person/crew who has their own equipment and does the field data collection and send the data and report etc...back to the licensee for whatever purpose (let's say boundary work in this example). Then the crew moves on to another project for a different firm....
I think you would have an Anti Trust argument if you tried to restrict this. The rub isn't temporary, or "their" equipment. The rub is WHO is supervising the crew.
Mike Falk, post: 357970, member: 442 wrote: I think you would have an Anti Trust argument if you tried to restrict this. The rub isn't temporary, or "their" equipment. The rub is WHO is supervising the crew.
If you pay them directly and meet with them beforehand to brief them and give them direct orders on the 'game plan' to be carried out, then I don't see how this is any different than what 80% of surveyors are doing in their normal practice right now
When you find an arrangement that satisfies your board you also need to check on the tax implications, as the IRS may see the contracting/employment relationship differently. If you are supervising the work and specifying the procedures, you may be an employer.
No problem, if you are a company or individual offering surveying you need a license so........
If you work with them in a supervisory role, including on site, it is great. If you close your eyes and say go measure what you find, you will eventually learn why that is an incredibly stupid choice.
I have more of a problem with state boards who micro-manage the actions of licensees to the point where they aren't allowed to use their professional judgment on issues like this then the actual use or non use of contract crews. Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it's not...but it's a decision the professional should be making on the ground, based on the individual facts, rather than being regulated by the state.