We are doing some of our work where we use our RTK to measure points where we do our testing. The farmer whose property we are working on (but not who we are working for) said he wants to fence off 40 acres of his property. It has an existing fence along the north and west sides which he said are on his property boundary and have been there over 50 years.
Anyway he said he knows he needs to go 1,320' south from the corner along the west fence and 1,320' east from the corner along the north fence but he can't figure out how to locate the missing SE corner in order to make it square. He asks me if I can use my fancy gadget to help. I explain to him that I am not a licensed land surveyor and that I can not locate or define any property boundaries. I then tell him that I have no way of knowing even if his north and west fences are on his property lines. He says he does not care and it is not critical he just wants me to measure 1320 in each direction along the fences for him and then find the missing corner to make it square. All he cares about is that he makes the fence square more or less and he said he didn't care if it was 10' off.
He is a nice guy and has been really hospitable to us working on his property so I did it for him. Did not charge him a penny. I did not provide him any coordinates, maps, plats, etc. Just painted some dots on the ground at 1320' down each existing fence and a dot for the missing corner to make it square.
Somehow it feels like I did something I should not have but I wanted to help him out.
[USER=8604]@Drilldo[/USER]
Good question. I'd say technically not, but some might disagree, including the State Board or some lawyers.
Sounds like construction layout to me; which in my state, doesn't require a license.
You made all the appropriate disclaimers but those verbal disclaimers will be forgotten and you'll be thrown under the bus should something go sideways.
Make a note in your field notes about the who, the what, the why, and your disclaimers, date and sign the note and do the work.
You wouldn't get any grief from me.
Drilldo, post: 397634, member: 8604 wrote: We are doing some of our work where we use our RTK to measure points where we do our testing. The farmer whose property we are working on (but not who we are working for) said he wants to fence off 40 acres of his property. It has an existing fence along the north and west sides which he said are on his property boundary and have been there over 50 years.
Anyway he said he knows he needs to go 1,320' south from the corner along the west fence and 1,320' east from the corner along the north fence but he can't figure out how to locate the missing SE corner in order to make it square. He asks me if I can use my fancy gadget to help. I explain to him that I am not a licensed land surveyor and that I can not locate or define any property boundaries. I then tell him that I have no way of knowing even if his north and west fences are on his property lines. He says he does not care and it is not critical he just wants me to measure 1320 in each direction along the fences for him and then find the missing corner to make it square. All he cares about is that he makes the fence square more or less and he said he didn't care if it was 10' off.
He is a nice guy and has been really hospitable to us working on his property so I did it for him. Did not charge him a penny. I did not provide him any coordinates, maps, plats, etc. Just painted some dots on the ground at 1320' down each existing fence and a dot for the missing corner to make it square.
Somehow it feels like I did something I should not have but I wanted to help him out.
No, it's when a description gets filed in the court house from your layout, then you would be surveying.
A carpenter, landscaper, engineer, ect can all measure, they just can't do boundaries.
You don't say what state you are in but here in WA you would be in trouble with the BOR if this were reported. You don't state whether these fence lines were/are bounding someone elses property, and that would be key to the answer. If Farmer owned all the land surrounding the dot that you painted probably not much risk, but if not, there is risk involved. Its all about minimizing risk. I don't see this going well if it went to a court.
I'd be less concerned about an unlicensed practice charge than I would a civil liability charge. If he builds the fence to your dots, and later gets sued by his neighbor for encroaching on the neighbor's land, you're going to get dragged into it. The risk may be minimal, but that's your call.
I like the responses you've gotten.
The problem with his requested layout is that his original property is not going to be a nice exact multiple of 1320 ft, so when he fences off at 1320 ft, and then later sells some of the land by aliquot parts (calling it the quarter quarter section), somebody could get mad over the difference between 1320 ft and half or quarter the total distance. We can hope that they will accept a fence as being the intent in the transaction, and not argue over distances, but we know how it too often goes.
He could've done the same thing with 2 rolls of barbed wire...
If anybody ever asks; tell him to tell them; that's what HE did. :innocent:
Jim Frame, post: 397643, member: 10 wrote: I'd be less concerned about an unlicensed practice charge than I would a civil liability charge. If he builds the fence to your dots, and later gets sued by his neighbor for encroaching on the neighbor's land, you're going to get dragged into it.
The way I understood it; the neighbors were the 2 existing fences and he wanted to fence off an interior portion of his property. Is that not right?
Bill brings up the main issue; if he ever decides to sell off that 40, by aliquot description; there's going to be a problem.
Drilldo, post: 397634, member: 8604 wrote: We are doing some of our work where we use our RTK to measure points where we do our testing. The farmer whose property we are working on (but not who we are working for) said he wants to fence off 40 acres of his property. It has an existing fence along the north and west sides which he said are on his property boundary and have been there over 50 years.
Anyway he said he knows he needs to go 1,320' south from the corner along the west fence and 1,320' east from the corner along the north fence but he can't figure out how to locate the missing SE corner in order to make it square. He asks me if I can use my fancy gadget to help. I explain to him that I am not a licensed land surveyor and that I can not locate or define any property boundaries. I then tell him that I have no way of knowing even if his north and west fences are on his property lines. He says he does not care and it is not critical he just wants me to measure 1320 in each direction along the fences for him and then find the missing corner to make it square. All he cares about is that he makes the fence square more or less and he said he didn't care if it was 10' off.
He is a nice guy and has been really hospitable to us working on his property so I did it for him. Did not charge him a penny. I did not provide him any coordinates, maps, plats, etc. Just painted some dots on the ground at 1320' down each existing fence and a dot for the missing corner to make it square.
Somehow it feels like I did something I should not have but I wanted to help him out.
In Arizona that is Land Surveying and requires a license. As someone else has stated, two rolls of wire will accomplish what he intends to do...
You made a mark on what may or may not be the southeast corner, for him to build a fence along his boundary line. You used what you thought was two of his corners. Yes that is what a land Surveyor does, only we check the adjoiners and use other information as well.
I understand he could have done that himself, but you did it for him.
It's a coin toss if a Board will go after you. You definitely encroached by many State definitions of Surveying.
The existing fences border different landowners. The land all around the dot I painted for the missing corner is his.
The distances of the four sides from the shots I took on all corners are 1320' +/- 2". He was painting dots on the ground about a foot in diameter. No permanent type markers were set.
Lots of trees and topography was in the way making a more primitive approach more difficult. We then snapped a line between the points and tied some flagging along the east and south lines so he could clear it with his dozer.
Scott Ellis, post: 397654, member: 7154 wrote: You made a mark on what may or may not be the southeast corner, for him to build a fence along his boundary line. You used what you thought was two of his corners. Yes that is what a land Surveyor does, only we check the adjoiners and use other information as well.
I understand he could have done that himself, but you did it for him.
Not exactly. He took me to the existing fence corner and said measure from here down the fence 1320' towards the east and we will paint a dot and then measure 1320' towards the south along a fence and we will paint a dot. Then find the missing corner for me to make it square and we will paint a dot there.
Where he is building the fence isn't going to be his boundary he just wanted a fence in that general area I think and figured he might as well make it 40 acres and square instead of some random crooked area.
This very thing came up a number of years ago in Oklahoma.
An unlicensed surveyor used his company's equipment to help a neighbor stake a half mile "quarter line" for new fence that had monuments on both ends.
The local county survey got his panties in a wad because he had quoted the land owner a price for the job and ultimately did not get the work. He turned in a complaint against the employee and his employer to the State Board.
After much hoo-fraw it was determined that no statutes had been broken by either licensed or unlicensed individuals. The Board determined that laying out a fence (or anything else) between two known points does not constitute a land survey. However the Board was critical of the employer and admonished them to the fact that liability can be an issue when employees "moonlight".
Anything relative to the lot lines is surveying, whether it's on the line or some offset. Setting fence lines out in the middle of a piece or land, with no concern of the lot lines is not.
It's a grey area for sure. Arguments can be made both ways. The problem is what it might cost you somewhere down the road if just the right circumstances arise over which you have no control. The problem is that you LOOK LIKE a surveyor. If he had his neighbor help hold a 100 foot cloth tape and lay it out no one would accuse that neighbor of behaving like a surveyor.
Jim in AZ, post: 397651, member: 249 wrote: In Arizona that is Land Surveying and requires a license. As someone else has stated, two rolls of wire will accomplish what he intends to do...
Because of the tool I used to do it? What If it were wide open and I had used two rolls of barbed wire to find the point? Or what if I were a fencing contractor and was hired to build a square fence this size and used whatever means to build it that way? Not really trying to argue about it just curious where the line is drawn.
It would be land surveying when any of the points you are setting are along an exterior boundary.
Were you compensated in any way for your cooperation?