Holy Cow, post: 397680, member: 50 wrote: Were you compensated in any way for your cooperation?
Drilldo, post: 397634, member: 8604 wrote: He is a nice guy and has been really hospitable to us working on his property so I did it for him. Did not charge him a penny. I did not provide him any coordinates, maps, plats, etc. Just painted some dots on the ground
Holy Cow, post: 397680, member: 50 wrote: Were you compensated in any way for your cooperation?
No - I did it for free.
Its no different than a fencer laying out a fence for a garden or a set of corrals.
Yes, no and maybe to answer the question.
It is possible that you probably have abetted a future land sale when Farmer Doe will sell off the 40 and claiming the property was surveyed by a surveyor.
I guess that we should assume that he will place a fence post at the paint dot.
Hopefully when he sells, the buyer will get it surveyed.
But again what is very certain in my opinion is that the farmer thinks that he has a 40 acre tract that was surveyed by a surveyor. You.
+
Drilldo, post: 397663, member: 8604 wrote: Not exactly. He took me to the existing fence corner and said measure from here down the fence 1320' towards the east and we will paint a dot and then measure 1320' towards the south along a fence and we will paint a dot. Then find the missing corner for me to make it square and we will paint a dot there.
Where he is building the fence isn't going to be his boundary he just wanted a fence in that general area I think and figured he might as well make it 40 acres and square instead of some random crooked area.
Why would the corner be missing then if it was not a property corner? Did you make a mark where the property corner should be, or did you make a mark so he could fence off 40 acres somewhere on of his tract not along a boundary line?
Drilldo, post: 397688, member: 8604 wrote: No - I did it for free.
This struck a note with me because the unlicensed surveyor that helped a neighbor stake 1/2 mile of fence was yours truly.
It was 1976 and I actually asked my boss if it was OK to borrow the HP3810A to help out a neighbor. After I had explained the situation he agreed.
The local county surveyor had set the center of section and the quarter corner out in the road was well established (this was before we filed corner references). I do remember when I was questioned about it everybody wanted to know if I had been "paid". I guess they all thought that was something that might have some bearing on the situation. I did not receive monetary recompense for helping a neighbor. I did however find several bales of fresh alfalfa hay in the back of my truck for my goats when I was finished....
paden cash, post: 397665, member: 20 wrote: This very thing came up a number of years ago in Oklahoma.
An unlicensed surveyor used his company's equipment to help a neighbor stake a half mile "quarter line" for new fence that had monuments on both ends.
The local county survey got his panties in a wad because he had quoted the land owner a price for the job and ultimately did not get the work. He turned in a complaint against the employee and his employer to the State Board.
After much hoo-fraw it was determined that no statutes had been broken by either licensed or unlicensed individuals. The Board determined that laying out a fence (or anything else) between two known points does not constitute a land survey. However the Board was critical of the employer and admonished them to the fact that liability can be an issue when employees "moonlight".
I have heard about a few cases, when employees on the side did some work for a friend or family. Screwed up the boundary and the landowners tried to go after the Company that owned the equipment. Not sure if they won the case or not.
This is where the legalities are not always clear and could get a little dicey. The improvements to the property (fence) could be used as a basis for a future land division. Any parting out of land constitutes one aspect of land surveying. The act of measuring land is only one tool used to arrive at title determination. At this time, he is placing a fence on what he believes is his property. Hope he's right.
It may not have been your intent to determine title lines or any lines of record. You measured along existing fences at his request, which makes him the responsible party (in my view). Fence companies do this all the time, which I consider an act of committing title survey (sounds ominous doesn't it?). It's the S/E corner where issues might arise. If the area comes up short or too large then he may sing a different tune.
I would advise he seek out professional assistance. It could save him many thousands down the road and relieve you the worry.
I don't think he laid out a square. Sounds like a parallelogram to me.
And it may not be 40 acres, depending on the angle at the northwest corner.
Scott Ellis, post: 397693, member: 7154 wrote: +
Why would the corner be missing then if it was not a property corner? Did you make a mark where the property corner should be, or did you make a mark so he could fence off 40 acres somewhere on of his tract not along a boundary line?
By corner I am not talking about a property corner I am talking about a fence corner. He wants to build a square 40 acre fence. It has an existing fence on two sides which he could presumably measure down the fence in order to establish three of the fence corners but he didn't know how to locate where to put the fourth corner as it is out in the middle of his pasture with no fences anywhere around it.
I don't have the bearings in front of me but unless the two existing fences were not at a right angle to each other it is dang close to square. The calculated area based off the the four corners was 39.998 acres.
Drilldo, post: 397673, member: 8604 wrote: Because of the tool I used to do it? What If it were wide open and I had used two rolls of barbed wire to find the point? Or what if I were a fencing contractor and was hired to build a square fence this size and used whatever means to build it that way? Not really trying to argue about it just curious where the line is drawn.
Drilldo, post: 397673, member: 8604 wrote: Because of the tool I used to do it? What If it were wide open and I had used two rolls of barbed wire to find the point? Or what if I were a fencing contractor and was hired to build a square fence this size and used whatever means to build it that way? Not really trying to argue about it just curious where the line is drawn.
I misunderstood your OP. If this land is entirely surrounded by his land you are fine - no problem. If an adjoining parcel were owned by a different party there would be an issue.
Drilldo, post: 397706, member: 8604 wrote: By corner I am not talking about a property corner I am talking about a fence corner. He wants to build a square 40 acre fence. It has an existing fence on two sides which he could presumably measure down the fence in order to establish three of the fence corners but he didn't know how to locate where to put the fourth corner as it is out in the middle of his pasture with no fences anywhere around it.
I would say you helped a guy make a square fence, coming off of a fence that is a boundary line could still be a gray area depending on that State this was done in.
I understand sometimes it hard to tell a landowner no, when he is being helpful, and nice. Especially when the work is not for him, but the minera
Drilldo, post: 397706, member: 8604 wrote: By corner I am not talking about a property corner I am talking about a fence corner. He wants to build a square 40 acre fence. It has an existing fence on two sides which he could presumably measure down the fence in order to establish three of the fence corners but he didn't know how to locate where to put the fourth corner as it is out in the middle of his pasture with no fences anywhere around it.
I would say you helped the landowne make a square fence, it still could be a gray area depending on the State you were in, since you did come off a fence that is the boundary line, and you looked liked a Surveyor and used survey grade equipment. I doubt a state board would nail you to a cross for the favor.
I get it, its hard to tell a landowner no, especially one that has been nice and easy to work with, and you are doing work for the mineral owners, and not him. He ask for a favor. you have the equipment and time to do, plus it keeps him busy building a fence, giving you some peace and quiet to work.
Drilldo, post: 397673, member: 8604 wrote: .... just curious where the line is drawn.
yuk, yuk....
Well you came to the right site to ask that question.
Answer, is that the line is gray and not always straight. Maybe you could tell him that you could potentially get in trouble for that, because it is vague, and that you will only use language that you were just marking off a distance.
A different board member or a different lawyer might interpret the law or board rule differently. And if you are not a land surveyor are you expected to know all of the land survey board rules and laws? Maybe you are since you work in the field....?
James Fleming, post: 397702, member: 136 wrote:
I'm not an Elf. More like a Dwarf/Hobbit hybrid. :eyes:
There is one additional point I would like to make about this discussion.
Oklahoma Statutes, along with several others states, are more specific about non-licensed individuals performing work under the guise of some sort of licensure than anything else. Our statutes are very specific about someone "representing" themselves as a professional surveyor when they are not. And they specify what falls under the responsibility and duties of a licensed surveyor since licensed individuals are the ones the Board has the most interest in.
Any liability incurred while helping a land owner "square up" or lay out a specific region would probably be civil in nature and our BOR would probably see it as layout work and probably determine there was nothing fraudulent, whether the laid out area was abutted by a boundary or not.
Wait a minute. Did you shoot three existing corners posts and then set points precisely 1320 feet from the common corner to the east and then the south? Following that did you then set a point that was 1320 feet from the two end points you set at precisely 1320?
That is very different than shooting two corner posts and setting a point precisely 1320 feet from those two posts. First you have no way to guess at the enclosed area and second there is no way to know what the final shape is when you include the existing fences. Say the west fence was actually 1400 feet long and the north fence was about 1250 feet long.
I learned the hard way to subscribe to the 'no good deed goes unpunished' school of thought. Before getting licensed I helped a few good people out over the years doing something similar and in one instance found myself sucked into a dispute I wasn't unaware of until it was too late. Proceed with all due caution. I'd say if your just helping the gentleman lay out a fence and you know it's not anywhere near an adjoining boundary, no big deal.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
You were asked to measure 1,320 feet and spray a bit of paint on the ground. That doesn't sound like any definition of Land Surveying to me.