Over the past year it appears to me that finding people to work in the Surveying sector has become harder and harder. When looking for knowledgeable people as a field tech or cad tech is almost impossible. Am I the only one seeing this?
Look at yesterday's post about realtors looking for $250 surveys.
There's no big money in surveying, stability is lacking, and we get no respect. The general public thinks that we're screwing them all the time, and are always looking for the cheapest price.
It's no surprise that fewer people are going into our profession - a profession that's looked upon as a trade by most people.
> There's no big money in surveying, stability is lacking, and we get no respect. The general public thinks that we're screwing them all the time, and are always looking for the cheapest price.
>
> It's no surprise that fewer people are going into our profession - a profession that's looked upon as a trade by most people.
:good: Unfortunately, very true.
-V
> Look at yesterday's post about realtors looking for $250 surveys.
>
> There's no big money in surveying, stability is lacking, and we get no respect. The general public thinks that we're screwing them all the time, and are always looking for the cheapest price.
>
> It's no surprise that fewer people are going into our profession - a profession that's looked upon as a trade by most people.
That is true to a certain extent, but only as we allow it. It is our fault and we are the only ones who can change it.
I have seen first hand the respect that is demanded by a surveyor/businessman who charge a respectable fee for a professional service and educate others when they get the chance. People begin to listen when you talk. Do you want a reputation as the $250 Elevation Certificate guy? No. If you want to be known as a professional, charge a professional fee and act like a professional. Pick up a book and learn something new. Donate some time to a worthy cause. Go speak at a local school.
Some things may sound a little cliche, but the surveyors who are respected professionals in their community do these very things.
(This isn't pointed directly at you JPH, I don't know you. These are just general statements.) :beer:
> Over the past year it appears to me that finding people to work in the Surveying sector has become harder and harder. When looking for knowledgeable people as a field tech or cad tech is almost impossible. Am I the only one seeing this?
i agree w/ what's been previously said and i'll give you a little more.
imho...we have technoligized (is that a word?) ourselves out of some beginning positions that used to lead to the path of upward mobility. not all of this is bad. it has lessened costs and increased productivity for most surveyors, but it has also reduced the number of trainees for the positions that you mention.
there are fewer rodman/chainman positions that led to an instrument man postion that led to a party chief position that led to a drafting/tech position that led to a surveyor in training position that hopefully, after much needed experience and education, led to a quailified registered surveyor.
gps, robots, scanners, etc. have pretty much knocked out many of the two initial postions and therefore have lessened the numbers qualified for the following positions.
my $0.02.
From what I've heard in the past, since land surveying is more volatile than numerous other industries during recessions, "underlings" (field members, cad folks) often look for more stable employment. I have lived through a number of recessions and since I have been in surveying, I have been affected with layoffs on a more frequent basis than when I held other types of employment.
Another consideration is certainly pay. Starting pay for field members has not increased significantly in the past 20-30 years around here. Not enough to live on. A number of years ago when McD's was short of people, they had signs posted advertising a higher wage than surveying in this area. Anybody else see the irony there?
Well said David !!!
I agree, Frank
There's 3 licensed surveyors in my office including myself. We all do our own "drafting". On one hand this can provide a very streamlined process with little or no 'clerical refining'...on the other hand it can bog down into a virtual log jam. (This week I've prepared almost 70 8.5x11 RW exhibits...with only 20 or so to go). It's not like any one of us doesn't have something better and more profitable to do.
We had a meeting the other day about scheduling, production, etc. and determined that if anybody every applied that had as much cad production skills as any one of us, we'd hire them on the spot.
The old progressive hierarchy of experience that so many of us remember has apparently gone the way of the dip-needle and the dodo bird.
Irony
> "Be careful what you wish for"
If "Techs, minions and underlings" are what youre looking for, not having a competent pool to choose from should not come as a surprise.
> Over the past year it appears to me that finding people to work in the Surveying sector has become harder and harder. When looking for knowledgeable people as a field tech or cad tech is almost impossible. Am I the only one seeing this?
Completely disagree. Most of our employee's have surveying degree's or some post secondary education. We try to support those individuals whom have made a choice of educating themselves in surveying or those who are willing to be educated while working.
What kind of wages are being offered? What wages can you afford?
I don't employ any others. Why, just never worked out that well making the payroll (and dealing with all the taxes). Don't like being a slave to the employees and government. Maybe if the work could be billed out at a high enough rate, but many are just giving it away and paying minimum wage.
It seems to be a common attitude these days that an employer is some sort of social organization to provide jobs and benefits to the masses. Good luck with that, sooner than later the money (taxes) will run out. The government is broke but with the ability to print money has been able to continue and pay. Most private businesses can't print money or borrow forever.
There is plenty of capable folks out there to work, we just don't have a system anymore where business can afford (make a profit) to be able to pay them properly. I hope we turn the corner and return to some sort of productive system but can't really see how that will happen any time soon.
we've had trouble finding some good people for a while
i've been working on a cloning machine, but i've been too busy surveying to complete it.
i often dream about jumping ship and landing in another profession... but then i consider the joy i receive from certain combinations of projects and I yearn to complete them...
All good comments. However, while those of us already eyeball deep in this profession can certainly apply different strategies to improve things, the real issue is that there are not many young people seeking out surveying as a profession because there is not much incentive currently except for low pay, and job instability.
Sure, we need to charge what our services are worth, but someone looking to start out, looking for experience, looking for a company, doesnt have that option. They can only accept what a company is willing to pay, and since that isnt much these days, they are apt to seek out work elsewhere. There are easier jobs out there that pay better, and until that changes our numbers will continue to fall.
The profession needs to be made attractive to the next generation and honestly, I'm not sure how to do that.
-V
If anyone is wondering why our "profession" is in the shape its in, low wages, job insecurity, etc. please read the article in this months POB. Lucas quotes Brown:
"Without superior knowledge, we have an inferior profession … One of the reasons for giving surveyors the exclusive privilege of marking boundaries is to prevent the unskilled from monumenting lines that encroach on the bona fide rights of others … The major deterrent to our becoming a learned profession is our low requirements for the right to practice. So long as we have low admission requirements, we will have low standards of practice and low public opinion … Differences between surveyors are a cause of degradation. We prove by our own survey monuments that we are incompetent, since we cannot all arrive at the same location using the same deed … Professional stature is not gained by self proclamation. Professional stature must be earned and can only be measured by what others think of us … If you want to be a professional man, earn that right."
We will not have the "professional" stature, stability, and even monetary reward until we quit acting and practicing like a trade. Brown wrote the above over 50 YEARS AGO and we not only have not improved, we've gotten worse! Read the case Lucas presents as evidence of such. Heck we don't even know the difference between a resurvey/retracement and an original survey!! Believe me, I can fully understand the surveyor Arnold's position in this case. He probably has had to spend many 10's of thousands of dollars and many months if not years dealing with this case trying to protect his family, business and reputation all because some idiot, another "professional", doesn't have a clue about what we are supposed to be doing out there for the public.
Why can we not turn this around? One problem I see, is our "licensing boards" and quite frankly, our own "professional" organizations. Until these are filled with educated professional surveyors (not bureaucrats, engineers, and "good ole' boys"), that do understand what we are supposed to be doing, we will remain right where we are, and exactly where we belong - a sub-professional trade.
> Look at yesterday's post about realtors looking for $250 surveys.
>
> There's no big money in surveying, stability is lacking, and we get no respect. The general public thinks that we're screwing them all the time, and are always looking for the cheapest price.
>
> It's no surprise that fewer people are going into our profession - a profession that's looked upon as a trade by most people.
No such thing as realtor surveys around here. And if your banking on private clients that are always looking for the cheapest price....then yes there is no big $ in surveying. We simply don't work for private clients and if we do we're picky. We have had a steady municipal workflow for 10+ years and right now the survey department is as busy as it ever was and we're booked solid through Decemeber. Our field staff is paid quite well as our most in the area.
Seems like each little pocket of the US is a bit different.
We have had a steady municipal workflow
Yeah, that is different from here. I stay away from government work like the plague. Much better to work in the private world. Well, most of the time.
> It's no surprise that fewer people are going into our profession - a profession that's looked upon as a trade by most people.
Unfortunately, our profession is looked upon as a trade by many in the profession.
Ah, get off yer high horse.
We've got problems with our profession, for sure. Somehow, even with the value of land where it's at, the perceived value of our services isn't where it should be.
I think that part of the problem is that the general public doesn't notice the difference between a good and properly done survey and a bad survey. In both cases, they think that they get what they wanted. So, to them, it's just who costs less.
It's too bad that price-fixing is illegal.
There seems to be a large number of candidates on the construction staking side and a lot of companys pay to have these candidates go to local community colleges to take "Field Engineering" courses (learning to read the plans, theory behind equipment operation...etc).
Times have obviously changed. Back in the early 1970's when I got started in the family land surveying business, you started out as a pack mule or line cutter and slowly worked your way through each position. Basically, you learned how to be a surveyor by on the job training under the direct supervision of a licensed surveyor.
Nowadays it seems that kind of surveying upbringing has been replaced by "book learning" and have little to none practical experience.
I'm not saying that this is the whole cause, but it could have a little to due with it.
I got out of land surveying in 1989 and have done nothing but construction staking for General Contractors ever since. It's money in the bank, and I get free insurance and a paid vacation.
There apparently is discussion at Caltrans about 3 things: 1) We are very top heavy (more crews than ever with all LS personnel), 2) the average age of our profession is the highest of all the professions the State employs and 3) there is no entry level Survey Technician classification.
We really need some technicians for many of the tasks we do. That would make us much more cost effective.
