I ask because I wanted to set a traverse point nail in this guys dirt driveway as it was within the right of way, but they didn't want me to drive anything into "their driveway". It got me thinking, what rights do property owners have when it comes to their driveway inside the right of way? Would I be in the right to drive a nail there and ignore them or not? What if it was a concrete driveway instead of dirt? Obviously I try to avoid doing this whenever possible, but I'm curious as to what the law has to say about it if anyone knows.
I am a surveyor and I don't want to put a point in my driveway either.
Anything in a dirt drive will eventually find its way into a tire.
Have found that points farther away from any pavement and just inside the treeline and vegetation lasts longer than most.
3 to 5ft behind mailboxes is a good place too.
There are probably two scenarios:
His property line is actually the R/W line or (as is common in Oklahoma) his property line is the "CL" of the road and the R/W is some sort of easement, dedication or statutory R/W. In the case of an easement, the drive is still private property.
But I guess technically if the nail is outside of the boundary of his property AND the drive is truly dirt (what we consider unimproved around here) you might have some sort of leg to stand on. But why push it? There's no law against smacking a hornet nest in the R/W...but that doesn't make it a good idea.
Life's too short to putz around with boneheads. I'd put the nail somewhere else.
A Harris, post: 425252, member: 81 wrote: I am a surveyor and I don't want to put a point in my driveway either.
Anything in a dirt drive will eventually find its way into a tire.
Have found that points farther away from any pavement and just inside the treeline and vegetation lasts longer than most.
3 to 5ft behind mailboxes is a good place too.
By nail I mean a 10" galv spike or 18" rebar, not very likely to ever find it's way out of the ground unless someone digs it out. I'm asking this question more out of curiosity, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had to drive something in or near someone's driveway.
Whatever is set in a drive will need to be rather deep.
Every time used will be dug up an a soft spot will turn into a pothole.
People are weird and it's just not worth it.
I had a similar experience once, but an iron pipe was in someones gravel driveway at the county highway bounds. The guy came out of his house at 200mph once I started digging. He said a few choice words to me, then I attempted to explain myself. The blank look on his face told it all... I then said "I feel like I may not explaining myself as well as I could. Is there a way I could help you understand what I'm doing?"
OOOOOoooooo boy that got him all fired up again :rofl:
KJac, post: 425256, member: 8328 wrote: By nail I mean a 10" galv spike or 18" rebar, not very likely to ever find it's way out of the ground unless someone digs it out. I'm asking this question more out of curiosity, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had to drive something in or near someone's driveway.
So you're wanting to drive something in this fellow's dirt driveway that could give him a flat tire?
If it's a property corner, something is getting set no matter what anyone else thinks. We will set it deep, for sure. But there will be a monument there before we leave. If it's a temporary traverse nail, I will set it and roll on but be back before we leave to pull it. I would not set long term control where there is any potential for a problem.
I'm sure you're within the law to set something in the driveway apron, since it's within the ROW. I'm also sure that you'd be liable if something you set caused damage to the guy's car. I don't think I'd eve set a spike in a dirt driveway, but a nail in a paved driveway seems pretty harmless.
But why even make it an issue, if the guy's already telling you not to do it, and you'd only be setting yourself up for confrontation and a meeting with the local police, eventually?
why not just be a good guy and put it off to the side- after you're long gone he is going to be stuck with it. If that was in my driveway here in Maine it would be gone one way or another the first time I hit it with the plow.
I avoid setting control in driveways for the simple fact that I prefer not to have my instrument run over when someone wants in or out.
KJac, post: 425256, member: 8328 wrote: By nail I mean a 10" galv spike or 18" rebar, not very likely to ever find it's way out of the ground unless someone digs it out. I'm asking this question more out of curiosity, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've had to drive something in or near someone's driveway.
You've never seen what a redneck on a tractor with a box blade can do when trying to fix their driveway. 🙂
Generally speaking, people don't have "rights" along their driveway (within the public road ROW), they have permitted uses and responsibilities.
A common permitted use would be construction of improvements to facilitate access onto the public roadway, but there are others...drainage, mailboxes, utilities, fences, lights, landscaping, ect.
I would say they have ownership of the improvements, the same way Pacific Power owns the power poles along the roadway.
The encroachment permit is conditionally granting permission for private property to be placed within the right of way.
Go to the responsible agency and request an overlapping encroachment permit to install permanent control monuments in the driveway and watch their head spin.
I have yet to try and use "the law" to do something on someone's property, even if it is part of the ROW. In this case, they maintain the area and likely have time and money invested into it, I would respect their wishes. Ultimately, if you are trying to push the limits, it's probably going to get ugly, and who really wants that?
Give it the Jurrasic Park test. Don't stop with 'could', think about 'should'... then consider this-
Regardless of the level of right the owner has, its likely superior to any that may interfere with it.
A related question...do you always set something for all traverse points? If I have intermediate points that aren't going to be used for anything, I don't set a ground point. I use the tribrach plate as the "point". HI for total station=0.196 m. HI for prism=0.083 m, HI for ARP of GPS=0.033 m (or 0.147 m if set on top of the prism). Nothing set, no error in the centering, no error in the HI's. Still gets a point number, still gets adjusted. If you have read my past posts, you will know that I do not like to call attention to my points (unless they are to be used by someone else). I don't paint them, I don't put a three stake "basket" around them. I know where they are, and I can easily find them again. I am very much against the "over-marking" of survey points for no reason. As I have said before, it seems to me to be like dogs lifting their leg to mark territory. Sometimes I think putting a stake beside a point is an invitation to a dozer operator to aim for it. If people can't see it, they can't destroy it intentionally.
Here the owner can grade, pave or install a culvert in driveways without much ado about it.
I've been in this situation . Gave the owner a briefing on what I was doing to deaf ears and just moved the location across the street.
In the cases where the fee goes to the centerline, I would say the right of way or easement to the public is for transportation. Although we commonly use it for our field efforts, I don't think we have any inherent right to be placing items in the ground. If push comes to shove, I think the landowner's rights would prevail. Some of this might be mitigated by any land surveyors' rights of trespass but probably would still not allow for placing of permanent features in the ground. Typically, under these conditions, any monumentation for property lines would be either at the edge of the road easement or further inside the property.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
dms330, post: 425608, member: 2118 wrote: In the cases where the fee goes to the centerline, I would say the right of way or easement to the public is for transportation. Although we commonly use it for our field efforts, I don't think we have any inherent right to be placing items in the ground. If push comes to shove, I think the landowner's rights would prevail. Some of this might be mitigated by any land surveyors' rights of trespass but probably would still not allow for placing of permanent features in the ground. Typically, under these conditions, any monumentation for property lines would be either at the edge of the road easement or further inside the property.
For transportation and utilities....utilities have some secondary claim to the R/W in most states as well.
Little known clause in the original draft of the Magna Carta
(42) In future it shall be lawful for any man to leave and return to our kingdom unharmed and without fear, by land or water, preserving his allegiance to us, except in time of war, for some short period, for the common benefit of the realm. People that have been imprisoned or outlawed in accordance with the law of the land, people from a country that is at war with us, and merchants - who shall be dealt with as stated above - are excepted from this provision.
(43) If a man holds lands of any `escheat' such as the `honour' of Wallingford, Nottingham, Boulogne, Lancaster, or of other `escheats' in our hand that are baronies, at his death his heir shall give us only the `relief' and service that he would have made to the baron, had the barony been in the baron's hand. We will hold the `escheat' in the same manner as the baron held it.
(44) People who live outside the forest need not in future appear before the royal justices of the forest in answer to general summonses, unless they are actually involved in proceedings or are sureties for someone who has been seized for a forest offence.
(45) Any man who enters the Kings Highway for the purpose of measuring the land and placest control that interferes with the wagons or livestock of the local Baron shall be subject to not less than a fortnight in the stocks.
