Unfortunately, point clouds have become and will be even more so going forward a commodity. I am not defending this. Just stating the fact. Yes Surveyors should be better at control and extracting features. He who produces the commodity the cheapest wins the right to have less profit and more volume. Like Jr. Samples used cars "we lose a little money on every deal but make up for it with volume".
My mechanic explained how you need to charge for technology, whether you out it or rent it. When he bought his first diagnostic computer many years ago he would hook it up and scan the engine for error codes. With the given codes he would make the appropriate repair and the client was on their way. After several months with this technological marvel he realized his revenue had decreased somewhat. The reason was that he has replaced several billable hours a day with using the diagnostic computer. In addition to the lost revenue he was paying for the computer and updates (out of his now diminished revenues). That being said he decided to charge a flat rate of $90.00 (?) for connecting the diagnostic computer to a car. This charge compensated him for the expense of buying the computer, upgrades and eventual replacement of the computer. Why is it that (some) surveyor cannot understand this lesson. Charge for the technology you use on a project especially is you own it. This equipment requires you to pay initial purchase cost, maintenance, updates, insurance, and its eventual replacement with newer technology. Why should your client benefit from your business decision to purchase equipment that increases the accuracy and speed of your work? The liability is the same.
We have been stopped from charging for equipment by some clients, when they audit us those charges have to be eliminated, so a scanner on one of their jobs would have to be used without any fees.
You can always build an hourly crew rate for different work such as total station, GPS, or scanning or for different number of crew members.
[USER=7322]@Jethro[/USER]
That is an excellent example of how surveyors have been stupid for years. Far too many have left tremendous amounts of money on the table because they wouldn't pay themselves for their investments.
For scanning we have a daily rate and for everything else we have 4 hour mobilization rates for most jobs within our average service area (odd balls get priced according to the oddity). The 4 hour rates are then broken out between crew types; 1 person/2 person and again by type of work; regular/high precision. An example of "high precision" would be building grid line and foundation layout. I account for the people, equipment used and the effort involved within the 4 hour rate. All of this rate business is used very limitedly though, most of my contracts are fixed fee and rates kick in for restaking or out of scope requests or on the rare occasions the Client wishes to be billed T&M.
Holy Cow, post: 376374, member: 50 wrote: [USER=7322]@Jethro[/USER]
That is an excellent example of how surveyors have been stupid for years. Far too many have left tremendous amounts of money on the table because they wouldn't pay themselves for their investments.
About 19 years ago a friend went into business for himself, and I was impressed until he sent over his rates: He was billing himself at $25 an hour. I was stunned at the lack of business sense. When I opened my own shop 16 years ago I realized my advantage would be speed and efficiency, so my rate was $150 an hour for estimating purposes (as almost all of my projects are lump sum), and as the work poured in I upped that to $250 an hour, but again almost all lump sum. My friend at $25 an hour didn't last long. Nice guy, too.
MightyMoe, post: 376370, member: 700 wrote: We have been stopped from charging for equipment by some clients, when they audit us those charges have to be eliminated, so a scanner on one of their jobs would have to be used without any fees.
I have refused to prepare the item line or complete list of various detailed piece price type of invoice that some clients insist upon.
In my opinion, there is no itemized charge for every piece of equipment and/or person involved on a project.
I have a large supply of surveying tools from shovels, multiple hand tools, computers, TS, GPS, boats, ATV and trailer and vehicles.
Whatever is needed is used to complete the job at a quoted fee for all or any part of it.
Any individual figures that go into calculating my fee is for internal use only, there is and never has been a fee schedule.
PERIOD............
Holy Cow, post: 376374, member: 50 wrote: [USER=7322]@Jethro[/USER]
That is an excellent example of how surveyors have been stupid for years. Far too many have left tremendous amounts of money on the table because they wouldn't pay themselves for their investments.
Oh so true. Let's say you have a $2000 a month equipment note payment. If you don't tack on not only that expense, BUT also the expense of a planned replacement at some point in time, you're giving away your equipment in a sense. Wearing it out just so you can say "you're in business"... I've got colleagues that will get really down and dirty on their hourly rates at times to be competitive. And you can survive for a good long while just charging for warm butts and gasoline...but they have to pay in the end. Business Math 1101
A wise man lets the clients buy the equipment and insurance, and banks this elusive little thing called profit.
I certainly take as many variables and expenses as possible into figuring our fixed fees/lump sums. The vehicles and equipment are generally the largest numbers in that regard but depreciation should be a factor in the equation as well.
If I could get away with 100% lump sum trust me, I would but we do too much construction staking to not have a rate sheet at all. GC's around here would never go for a monthly restake lump sum invoice without hourly backup to support it. 99% of the time the staking contracts are the only ones I show rates on.
Cameron Watson PLS, post: 376425, member: 11407 wrote: I certainly take as many variables and expenses as possible into figuring our fixed fees/lump sums. The vehicles and equipment are generally the largest numbers in that regard but depreciation should be a factor in the equation as well.
If I could get away with 100% lump sum trust me, I would but we do too much construction staking to not have a rate sheet at all. GC's around here would never go for a monthly restake lump sum invoice without hourly backup to support it. 99% of the time the staking contracts are the only ones I show rates on.
Our fees for all projects are lump sum (the only way to really make money) with an hourly rate for additional work. That's it - no less, no more. If you are some agency or entity that requires some type of unit or line item costs we will not be working for you.
Jim in AZ, post: 376427, member: 249 wrote: Our fees for all projects are lump sum (the only way to really make money) with an hourly rate for additional work. That's it - no less, no more. If you are some agency or entity that requires some type of unit or line item costs we will not be working for you.
Lump sum with a well defined and structured contract is the only way to go and probably 60% of our projects are such. The remainder of our clients(local municiapal and state) do not typically allow lump sum and as such those are hourly. Profite margins can be considerably higher with a lump sum project.25%+ compared to hourly at 10-25%
Every company Ive been associated with that put hours on invoice also had charge for every thing from supplies and mileage and copies and clerical duties.
For me that is to much oversight and inter office information placed into public hands.
C.Tompkins, post: 376254, member: 975 wrote: Most guys that do Laser Scanning full time are between 1500 and 2000 per day just for the scanner. But I could conceivably see scenarios where 1000 is acceptable depending on up front expense and usage.
But I can't justify buying a 100,000 technology and then turn around and use it for 1500 including the labor....that is just too low.
The $1000 a day is rental on the scanner and is in addition to our hourly crew rate.
