Salary Negotiation - Please Advise

The typical consulting firm I am familiar with will lure you in with fantastic promises, why you can double your salary just with the profit sharing meanwhile the owner and his wife are driving brand new luxury SUVs and at the end of the year, it was a tough year, the office our other company is leasing to us is expensive and the "company" vehicles are expensive so there is no profit but maybe next year?

I've seen some long time friendships get destroyed by similar circumstances... if you value the friendship you may want to consider that as well.

$58K might be good in your area but, as others have said, no bennies would be a no-go for me. If an employer can't provide health insurance at minimum then the compensation needs to be sufficient for you to be able to get your own; these days that could run into $20K or more.

Company car is nice, especially if they pay for all the fuel and maintenance, but you have to be careful there too... some companies will show non-business mileage as compensation at the IRS rate of $0.60/mile (or whatever it is these days) and you'll get taxed on that.

If you're going to be a one-man show then I would hope that they're going to provide the robot and RTK of your choosing...

No benefits is the kicker. My out of pocket family plan insurance is $12,000 a year. Which is an increase of $3900 over last year.

> Not personally I don't.

Allow me to introduce myself to you, personally.

I'm not a fan of consulting engineering/surveying firms. They treat surveying as a necessary evil. When things are good they will work you to death and when you ask to hire people they act like you want to auction off there first born. When things are bad you become expendable. They can lay you off and sub out surveying to the lowest bidder. I've been in both of these situations over the last 12 years.

If you do decide to go to work there. Get all the salary and benefits you can coming in the door. Raises become non-existent once you are there. Insurance and retirement are to things you really need to look out for. Insurance cost is increasing at a rapid pace and retirement is a good backup if things do go south.

> In all seriousness folks, what should I tell him?
>
> What are you guys making in your neck of the woods?

I hope I don't step on anybody's toes here. I am speaking only from my personal experience.

I believe the worst thing in the world a surveyor could do is accept employment at an engineering firm.

The second worst thing in the world a surveyor could do is accept a partnership with the owner of an engineering firm.

I have done both. I cannot see a good end for either scenario.

Having a professional surveyor on staff does MUCH for an engineer. Far more than 58K annually I would think. Having an engineer around is usually a hindrance for a surveyor, especially if he signs your payroll.

Saying that, the benefits, or lack of, and pay scale is up to each individual. If you want to work for that, go ahead. I have two unregistered employees that make that much.

Yeah, that doesn't cut it.

> Here is his offer:
> Salary: $58,000
> Benefits: None
> Job Description: Mostly construction layout, some boundary mixed in, topo mapping, etc.
> I would be working in the field alone (AKA no help) doing all of the field work and all of the office work associated with said field work.
> Vehicle: 2014 Jeep Wrangler to work out of and drive home.
I'd say that figure with bennies would be somewhat attractive. Without, not so much. But maybe.

I'd want to discuss a lot more about what kind of equipment he has and is willing to acquire. That will affect your happiness, your workload, and your chance of succeeding, which will affect your future earnings.

In other words, you are a consultant and not an employee. Is the $58K a salary or is that what you make if you were to get 40 hours+ per week. A Party Chief making $27.88 per hour will make $58 at 40 hours a week. If their insurance is covered, you may be coming in around $25.00, depending on if you are getting any family coverage. So basically, you are his RLS for the cost of a Party Chief. His offer brings up more questions than answers. Here are some questions that I would ask.

1. What is your long term vision for the Survey Department?
2. Do you see Survey as an independent profit center or a support for your other services.
3. Why do you think is the advantage to you having in house survey?
4. What is your expectation of the number of hours a week for this salary?
5. How much revenue do you expect Survey to generate?
6. What revenue goal do I need to meet to become a partner? At what %. (Make sure being a partner is an asset and not a liability.) If he is serious, he should let you see his books.

I have worked for engineering firms and have found that you need to understand their position on the Survey Department at the beginning. If you do not respect yourself, they are not going to do it for you. Your time and expertise is valuable, so act like it. Never work for someone who does not consider you an equal. Determine how you want to be compensated and under what terms. Don't apologize for wanting to be well compensated. Surveyors who conduct themselves professionally have no reason to be ashamed. It does not sound like he is trying to do you a favour.

> Here is his offer:
> Salary: $58,000
> Benefits: None
> Job Description: Mostly construction layout, some boundary mixed in, topo mapping, etc.

I get a few questions answered:

How did he procure survey work prior to you? If there's previous employee in the mix, I would talk to him/her.

If the answer is he contracted it out, then I would ask him how much he spent for survey work last year.

I would put an hour figure per week to my salary, above which I would receive extra compensation when extra work comes in.

When performing boundary only work how will you be compensated? It's worth talking about just in case it becomes a much bigger piece of the pie than either of you anticipate.

What will your input be in the bidding/quoting/costing process?

My experience working with engineering firms is not as bad as some on this site, but I think if he's uncomfortable with any of these questions he might be looking at you as a tool instead of an asset.

Steve

EDIT: Ooops. Someone else covered it 22 minutes ago. See the post above.

> Salary: $58,000
> Benefits: None
> Job Description: Mostly construction layout, some boundary mixed in, topo mapping, etc.
> I would be working in the field alone (AKA no help) doing all of the field work and all of the office work associated with said field work.
> Vehicle: 2014 Jeep Wrangler to work out of and drive home.

While all that information is good to have, it provides nothing of the information you really need to make this decision.

How much value will you bring to the company? How much income will you bring to the firm?

If the income you bring is $25,000 the offer is way too high.

If the income you bring is $150,000 the offer is way low.

You (and the company owner) need to take a hard look at the value you can provide. If the owner is working from guess work and has no figures supporting his offer, that is a sign this might not be the best long term opportunity for you.

Larry P

We have some CAD techs that make that plus benefits.

> > I know a lot of surveyors, and I don't know a single one making over $100,000.
>
>
> Yes you do bud

Best answer ever:-D

I have had similar positions in the past. The first one brought me a whopping 24k per year. It was high pressure no appreciation work. The biggest problem I see isn't the money. The lack of benefits is huge, and the financial part isn't my concern.
Jumping into a pressure cooker isn't really a problem for some people. In my younger days I thrived there. At the same time you will need time away from it. I'm not talking Sundays and an occasional Saturday. You will need time to decompress. You cant do that while knowing there isn't going to be a paycheck for a while. In that sense the offer tells me you are not valued beyond the short term billable time you can generate. The other possibility is that's all he can afford. Either way the result is the same. I'd take a pass...

> I'd take a pass...

Yup, me too.

As others have said, it not (so much) the lack of money and benefits, but the other issues.

Better I think to open your own shop and have them as a client.

I work for an engineering/survey firm. I think its a great place but I can see some of them being a problem. Use your judgement!

For the job, yes its low but maybe some of these people saying its low live in high cost areas. Maybe you can buy a nice house in the area for a 100k. I also agree, no benefits is a bad deal. He at least needs to help with health insurance and give you vacation and holiday pay.

> I'm not a fan of consulting engineering/surveying firms. They treat surveying as a necessary evil. When things are good they will work you to death and when you ask to hire people they act like you want to auction off there first born. When things are bad you become expendable. They can lay you off and sub out surveying to the lowest bidder. I've been in both of these situations over the last 12 years.
>
> If you do decide to go to work there. Get all the salary and benefits you can coming in the door. Raises become non-existent once you are there. Insurance and retirement are to things you really need to look out for. Insurance cost is increasing at a rapid pace and retirement is a good backup if things do go south.

There is some great advice right there!! Especially getting the best salary before you start. I've found often the only way to really get a decent raise is to quit. It's a hard truth. Owners don't appreciate the workers until it's too late.

Being a one-man show myself, I can't imagine doing mostly construction staking alone for that kind of money.
If you are already working for them, why not continue that route?? you becoming an employee saves them a ton of money, and they aren't even offering healthcare?? pfffft!

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful replies. There is a lot of good information here.

JBrinkworth?

I apologize for not noticing your name from the original post.

"Brinkworth" has a sort of lofty and agedly wise ring to it. I think you should run with. JBrinkworth & Associates. Now that's a name that jumps at you right off the page.

The writing's on the wall, J.B. 😉

So much sound advice. Here's mine.

Trust your gut. It's not bad money in your part of the country, but more over, you'll gain experience, they will learn to trust and depend on you. After a year if it's not working out, bargain for a better deal or move on. Getting a foot in the door is the first step. If they have a sound reputation and not a fly by night reputation, hitch your wagon. What you got to lose?

If your working solo, you'll need GNSS and good robotics. They will need to pony up to just get you going. Make sure you have a plan if they can't keep you busy. How about over time? If the 58K is based on 40 hr/week, potential there to bump things up? Do not discount retirement benefits. If they aren't going to offer anything, plan on taking 15-20% of that 58k and banking it. Medical on top of that. Can you live comfortably on what's left over?

Don't be greedy. The money is only the half of it. If you find yourself waking up at 3 a.m. wondering what you missed because you don't have the time to think about every angle of the job, trust me, the money will not be your biggest concern. Then when you get sick or fried and need some down time, who is going to keep things moving? Enjoying your work and looking forward to the day ahead is a little hard to put a price tag on.

Cheers and Happy Holidays!
~Willy