...and asked for a copy of a survey performed back in the 60's by this firm. The surveyor that certified the work has passed away. She said quote, "Rather than reinvent the wheel, I would like to start with the old survey." The client does not want to pay for a new survey. Hmmm.
Ms. RE Agent is somewhat a prominent individual in the community. I don't want to piss her off, but I am leary about sending this out.
What do you guys do? Any liability issues?
Deed Staker, post: 352794, member: 9807 wrote: ...and asked for a copy of a survey performed back in the 60's by this firm. The surveyor that certified the work has passed away. She said quote, "Rather than reinvent the wheel, I would like to start with the old survey." The client does not want to pay for a new survey. Hmmm.
Ms. RE Agent is somewhat a prominent individual in the community. I don't want to piss her off, but I am leary about sending this out.
What do you guys do? Any liability issues?
She wants a copy of the survey with the 1960's date and signature?
Sure, no problem..........
New date and signature?
Not happening.......
In our State I would suggest she get a copy from the courthouse records where it is readily available to anyone silly enough to rely upon it for a 2016 adventure.
The estate of Pierre Charles L'Enfant, how can we help you?
Hi, I'm a real estate agent in Washington D.C. and a client of mine is purchasing a property on R Street, NW...rather than, you know, "reinventing the wheel" I was wondering if you could just send me a copy of the original survey.
Deed Staker, post: 352794, member: 9807 wrote: ...and asked for a copy of a survey performed back in the 60's by this firm. The surveyor that certified the work has passed away. She said quote, "Rather than reinvent the wheel, I would like to start with the old survey." The client does not want to pay for a new survey. Hmmm.
Ms. RE Agent is somewhat a prominent individual in the community. I don't want to piss her off, but I am leary about sending this out.
What do you guys do? Any liability issues?
Ask Ms. RE Agent "Is relying on 50 year old title documents without any investigation wise?" Her answer will let you know if she is aware of the "time value" of information. Next tell her "The old survey is only starting point and both the title documents and field evidence need a complete review. The required review amounts to a new survey."
The old survey likely does not meet current minimum standards and releasing a copy of it at his time would have major liability issues!
Dallas Morlan, post: 352798, member: 6020 wrote: Ask Ms. RE Agent "Is relying on 50 year old title documents without any investigation wise?" Her answer will let you know if she is aware of the "time value" of information. Next tell her "The old survey is only starting point and both the title documents and field evidence need a complete review. The required review amounts to a new survey."
Does logic and reason usually work with morons, small children, and real estate agents for you? Because, honestly, I've never had much luck in that department. 😀
James Fleming, post: 352803, member: 136 wrote: Does logic and reason usually work with morons, small children, and real estate agents for you? Because, honestly, I've never had much luck in that department. 😀
Totally agree, just have a habit of going through the motions, keeping records of the contact and response, then being prepared for the illogical complaint to boss or board of registration.
In a recording state like Oregon old boundary surveys are public record. Anybody can get a copy, often for the downloading. Like MightyMoe says a copy with the 1960's date and signature shouldn't be any liability, but no way can you update it at no charge.
I'm wondering how she knew of the existence of an old survey. My bet is an unreadable copy in the abstract or "Photostat" copy from the sixties at the courthouse.
I'd probably tell her all the pre-1975 "old" archives were unavailable.
I would send it to her with a bill for reasonable copying & handling & shipping fees but simply as is, with the deceased's signature and original date on it. There used to be an ongoing debate on the old website about liability issues around sending out old copies -- some insisted there was liability involved, but no one ever produced any evidence that this was so. I send this sort of thing out routinely these days, usually for a flat fee.
This is the second one of this type this week!
Yesterday it was a title company who wished for me to retype the legal from my plat into a Word document and send back to them so they could copy and paste into a title commitment?!?!?! Keep in mind, this title company is not and was never my client and they are representing another party. When I mentioned the fee associated, he politely told me 'No thank you, I do not want to incur any more costs on my client.' He went on to say that other surveyors do this for him all the time. Well fat chance of me doing it for free!
The nerve of some people :pissed:
Thank you for the responses!
Mr. Cash is right. You can argue all day and night about standards / it being 50 years old or any other logical (to us) reason, but it won't matter. All that would do is pump up the old blood pressure for you.
We say "It got destroyed in the flood we had in the office 10 years ago". Sorry, but we can redo the survey......
Rather than reinvent the wheel, perhaps the old termite inspection, lead based paint, and radon tests can be used as well.
A fellow surveyor furnished an old survey for a new closing. He was included in a lawsuit because several improvements were placed on the property during the intervening years that weren't noticed.
Don't release anything, even a waiver, unless it is a new survey.
Deed Staker, post: 352794, member: 9807 wrote: ...and asked for a copy of a survey performed back in the 60's by this firm. The surveyor that certified the work has passed away. She said quote, "Rather than reinvent the wheel, I would like to start with the old survey." The client does not want to pay for a new survey. Hmmm.
Ms. RE Agent is somewhat a prominent individual in the community. I don't want to piss her off, but I am leary about sending this out.
What do you guys do? Any liability issues?
This situation isn't much of a problem here (recording state), but there are still a few surveys, maps, etc. that predate the recording laws, so similar situations do infrequently occur. Instead of being rude, condescending, or worse lying to her, why not use this opportunity to educate? Simply ask she come into your office and discuss her concerns? Yes, I realize many RE agents are only trying to save their clients a buck or two to facilitate a fast (fat) closing, but at least try to meet with her. Maybe a professional face to face conversation concerning the pitfalls of using a 50 year old survey performed by a dead guy may lead to who knows where?
Rather than re-invent the wheel, it would probably be wise to see if the tire had rotted off of it. At least see if it is flat.
DS-
Ask her to forward a copy of the 1960's appraisal she will be using to float a mortgage today !
Cheers,
Derek
I agree with those who advise not to burn bridges. This RE agent may never bring work to you, or she may end up sending a good deal of work your way in the future. Providing a copy of the original that contains the original date and signature does not incur any liability for you. However, I can see that if some problem does come up later because, in whole, in part, or even in an attorneys wide ranging imagination, the client relied on that drawing, you could be named in a suit. Depending upon the skill and story-telling abilities of your attorney and the opposing one, you might get out of the action pretty quickly, or you might have to spend a few thousand in legal fees before you are dropped from the suit.
But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't provide a copy. If it's a publicly recorded document, simply give her the recording info. If not, provide a copy with the original date on it but do not put todays date anywhere on it as that might be construed as you representing that the drawing reflects current conditions. Either way, also send a brief letter (sounds like creating a form letter for this situation might be appropriate for you) that explains that the copy has been provided as a courtesy and has not been reviewed to ensure that it reflects current conditions. Changes to the physical condition of the property and to the condition of title are likely to have occurred since the drawing was prepared and for those reasons, you recommend that a new survey be performed and that the old drawing not be relied upon for purposes of sale or for making improvements.
If requests for copies of old survey drawings are not rare, I'd also think about getting a stamp made that reads something like "Present conditions not verified - NEW SURVEY RECOMMENDED". If that appears in red ink somewhere on the face of the drawing, it makes it very difficult for either RE agent or buyer to later fault you for any problems that might be attributed to reliance on the drawing.
It could also be that the RE agent is deciding for the client what they are willing to put $ toward. Such a notice on the drawing would put the buyer directly on notice and that party may decide to cut through the static of the RE Agent's advice and look into the pros and cons of getting a new survey.
Don't burn any bridges that might lead to an unknown quantity of future business, but make sure that you properly CYA as you educate the RE Agent and her client.
I don't work for Real Estate Agents, they never use their money and take the position of advocate in being the middle man directing how everyone is supposed to get their client into a property for free while getting the big payday of 6% of sale price.
They do not ever take upon the responsible position to pay for my services and tend to want to negotiate or negate my fees when they never waiver on theirs.
I never begin a project unless I have been hired by the actual client who sends me an actual survey request.
Those clients are the only callers that get copies of anything.
Why can't her secretary (or herself) type up a prewritten description from off a plat? Why in the world would they want to call a professional to do their typing?
