> Can a property owner survey his own land with limited knowledge?
Yes, he can do his own brain surgery too, but it's not recommended. When the neighbor has his property surveyed and wants him to tear down his new fence because it's over a half a foot. Who do you think the judge is going to side with?
> Is this fairly intelligent guy, who hasn't worked on a survey crew "smart enough to be dangerous" when he tries to recover his 30-year-old corners?
Again, yes, he will make an attempt; make some assumptions; occupy his acre based on those assumptions and the neighbor will sue him after he has his property surveyed by a licensed professional.
> “He who is his own lawyer has a fool for a client”
Ok, that's totally different than the image you posted. What you posted was the Plat, which is the legal document that cuts big parcels into lots. If you had a new survey done that actually shows the improvements, you didn't mention that before.
> ...They did what's known as a location drawing.
Those are code words for:
- ...the insurance company wanted something but not a real survey because a real survey might have shown something that would have caused you to not make the purchase
- ...the person or persons who came to the site were most likely not surveyors at all. They were most likely minimally trained techs who do just enough work to make a pretty picture that has little or no correlation with real life
- ...something cheap that is close enough unless and until it isn't close enough but the bank and the title company don't really care because the buyer will ultimately be the party that suffers if things go bad
Many states have strict rules against these quickie locations that aren't really surveys but that masquerade as surveys.
The bottom line is this. If you truly want to know where your corners are located, get a survey by a competent professional based in the area where the property is located. Any idiot can get a metal detector and dig up some old something*, only a professional is trained to weigh all the available evidence and determine whether or not that old something is in fact a property corner.
Larry P
*I once dug up a one egg cast iron frying pan. Diameter of the pan was right around 4 inches. Only one I ever saw like it.
I am guessing you are in Maryland just from the notes on the plat. Your best bet is to contact the original surveyor that did the plat back in 1985, they would probably be able to give you the most competitive price. In Maryland, a location drawing is not a survey at all (which is listed in all the fine print on the drawing).
thank you paul
I'm glad the math is good, I was dreading having to use those pesky coordinates.
The Map Is Consistent With The Coordinates
"Accuracy" has to do with the mathematics of the plat.
That the pins may have been set or not has to do with the "truth" of the plat.
"Precision" has to do with the placement of those pins according to the plat.
Paul in PA
I can relate: Needed new drum brakes on the truck last week. Never had a rear brake issue before. I pulled the drum off to inspect, spent a couple of hours on Youtube watching a mechanic give step by step instructions on how to replace the rear brakes yourself (who needs a mechanic, right?). Thought to myself "I can do this".
A couple of days later, I brought it in to a mechanic. Not only did he replace both rear brakes, he did the front brakes AND an alignment. A few hours later I had my truck back and was happy as a clam.
Sometimes it pays to pay.
Steppinthrax: I give you credit for trying to do this yourself, but the subdivision is almost 30 years old. I would not expect all the corners to be in place. There is a reason we charge what we do. Most of us are licensed by the state, pay professional liablility insurance, own and maintain tens of thousands of dollars in equipment, yearly attend continuing education classes, etc etc etc.
What I'm probably going to do is get another metal detector and see if I can do a more detailed search. I'm also going to ask some of my neighbors questions to see where they think their line ends. If that dosen't work 'm going to have to find someone. The company that did the original survey wants $3K to come out and re-set the pins!!!!!
$3000 sounds high, even for California. Odds are this would be a Corner Record here.
When soliciting for a surveyor, tell them simply that you need a "Boundary Survey". State, "You bought a property and would like to know where your boundary lines are and that you were furnished with a copy of an older survey from 198?" Don't tell them you want your pins reset. When someone says they want their pins reset, it sometimes makes the surveyor believe that you are one of the types of customers who "already knows everything and that dern surveyor is only taking my money" which also tends to get the surveyor to levy a little bit of an a-hole tax. A boundary survey may sound expensive, however it will be worth it in the long run should any disputes arise. It is for your protection. It will probably cost "pennies" compared to what you paid for the property. It will definately be cheaper than removing and replacing a fence. If the first guy wants $3k, that does sound a little high. Call two or three more. If they want the same, then that is probably what the job should cost because they apparently know something about the area. Maybe the first guy is just overbooked and doesn't want any new work at the present time. If you are going to spend your time doing research, do it wisely -- research a good surveyor and hire one.
Stephen
> You should hire a surveyor to walk in the footsteps or perhaps step in the tracks.:-D
I finally got that one! (smiley face here)
... unless they are familiar with the neighborhood and know that there are usually problems with missing irons and distances that don't match the plat, so that it will require a lot of field work and record filing.
> The company that did the original survey wants $3K to come out and re-set the pins!!!!!
The reason the original company wants 3K to survey your lot is because it's not in their business model. Asking an engineering/surveying/planning company that designs subdivisions to survey a single lot is like asking a Wall Street law firm to prepare your will - sure they can do the work, but they have so much overhead they'd charge you 4-5 times what the local attorney would.
From the plat it looks to me like you're in Maryland. I changed careers last fall and don't practice anymore, but did survey in Maryland for twenty years. If you email me what county you're in; I'll give you the names of a couple of firms who I am sure can survey your property for a lot less than $3000. jfleming(at)antietamlandsurveying.com
Stephen
The handle jumped out at me from the beginning. At the time I was sure one of our own was having some fun. Thus my wise ass comment. Maybe I should be less cynical.;-)
From your post on the other message board, you said the lot had been some sort of dumping area for years and that you had found lots of metal junk. That would make the work much harder for an owner and for a surveyor. But at least the surveyor would be able to use their instruments to 'get into' the coordinate system to narrow the search areas. You are just going to waste money, time, and effort looking for something that A) might not be there B) You won't be able to rely on if you do find C) may cost you MORE money and legal trouble if you rely on the wrong thing.
Seriously, I don't understand the concept of buying property then trying so hard to NOT know what your really bought. Call around, get a better fee and have it done.
I wonder how many "man hours" of other people's time (like mine) you have already WASTED by now.... I'm done. got real clients and work to do. peace.
> Actually when the home was purchased a new survey company came out and re-did the survey. They didn't set any pins. They did what's known as a location drawing. The new drawing is more detailed because it includes things such as the location of the pool, well head, septic, shed, etc... Things that weren't there at the time the original drawing was created. The degree markings and measurements seemed to be taken from the old drawing and used in the new drawing (since they are the same).
That clearly changes things.
If you want useful advice you need to lay your cards on the table.
The specifics of the maps (without names, dates, and location obliterated) need to be know in order for a reasonable review and relevant comments.
...kinda like going to the doctor and complaining of chest pain but not telling him you use crystal meth on a daily basis:-S
Hate for anyone to waste your time. He should have brought up a paying subject, like that Fluke woman.
Steppinthrax,
Are you kin to my inlaws, you and my father in law have a lot in common. He is a do it yourselfer kinda guy. Cars no problem, roofing piece of cake, pluming-he's got the crack. He has been thinking about building a brick retaining wall on his east line, I am just waiting to see how he is going to do this. I have already told him i would layout his line for him, he responded, "i can probably handle it with a string line." I ask what he is going to string off of and he responded, "probably the fence corner."
Their price might also be based on having more information than which state the parcel is located in. I would not be so quick to throw the assertion that you know others who will do the job for a lower rate.
These things cost money.
> Their price might also be based on having more information than which state the parcel is located in. I would not be so quick to throw the assertion that you know others who will do the job for a lower rate.
>
> These things cost money.
3K to recover or set the lot corners on a one acre suburban lot in a modern subdivision in a non-recording state.
You best not let the cat out of the bag where those prices are commonplace, or you'll have a sudden influx of surveyors moving to the area 😉
BTW - if the property is where I think it is, I gave someone what I considered a lowball price for an ALTA of 23K a few years ago in the same neck of the woods and another surveyor did it for 6K. Bet that guy will come in under three grand for this job:-(
