I hired a surveyor and I feel like I need to hire another.

Hello,
Nothing in this message should be construed as legal advise. It's just what I would do.

1) From this point forward, make all contact regarding your situation my registered mail, or at least have an email chain so as to document your contacts with the "surveyor".
2) Look up the "surveyor" here: Arizona State Board of Technical Registration just to be sure you are dealing with a Registered Professional.
3) Ask the direct question: "Why is the fence in question (be specific about which fence ie "between lots 1 and 2") not clearly shown on the plat"? Don't try to parse the answer, just get an answer in writing.
4) Let your "surveyor" know you have reviewed the document found here:
Arizona Minimum Standards
Pay special attention to item (b) under ARIZONA BOUNDARY SURVEY MINIMUM STANDARDS
Definitions:
“Arizona Boundary Survey” means an
y one of more of the following:
(a) The marking of boundaries, the
setting of monuments, or the rest
oration or rehabilitation of any
monument marking a corner or
line that controls real property.
(b) The determination of
the location, on the ground, of any appurte
nance which may potentially affect the
rights and/or the enjoyment of real property.
(c) The determination of
the position of any monument, reference
point, or any other mark, when such
monument or mark controls the location of bound
aries or rights of ownership in real property.
(d) The presentation of any type of survey draw
ings, maps or plats, and/or re
ports-of-survey or any other
documents as related to land boundary surveying, fo
r the purpose of identifying the location of real
property.
5) Allow the "surveyor" the opportunity to correct his survey if you feel that he has not met the standards. Cite the items in the Standards you feel were not met.
6) If he refuses, and if it were me, the next step would be to refer him to the Arizona State Board of Technical Registration.
P.S. You might seriously consider having an Attorney do all of this and then recover the Attorney's fees from the surveyor. Bring the plat and the Standards to the Attorney,
Sorry you are having this problem. 9 times out of 10 it's a simple misunderstanding, but this has the odor of something else to me.

JB

Showing Boundary Line Fences should not be optional.

I don't know about Arizona, but in Florida, not showing a fence (with dimensions) along a boundary line is a serious omission. Fences along with other improvements built along boundary lines are evidence of possession of real property which can possibly effect ownership. Showing them on survey should not be optional.

>
> Right now I feel like I am at square one and I feel like I threw money away.
>
> Can anyone here give me some advise on what to do about this situation?
>
> Btw this is in Phoenix Az.

Corey,

First of all, it is not worth losing any sleep over and second, "square one" was when the fence was under construction by the contractor. If as you stated by your knowledge that it was being erected over the property line by a foot It seems that you had knowledge of the line to "one foot" accuracy and hired the surveyor to validate your knowledge of the line. It would be good to know the time line of events here. Construction of fence, your notice of fence, new neighbor taking occupancy of house, your notice to neighbor about fence and your initial contact with surveyor. Some here may want to discuss the principle of estoppel about this fence.

JB has given you some info about AZ Minimum Standards for fro Boundary Surveys. Standards and even definitions of surveys differ from state to state accordingly.
In my state under minimum standards of care, the fence would be considered physical improvement to the property or an real immovable property such as something that is affixed to the land and would be damaged from the act of removing. It would be shown on the boundary property survey of a city lot.
An appurtenance would be a servitude or easement subscribed to the property. This would also be shown or notated on the plat of survey in some way also.

As a facetious aside, it is delightful to think that it would be very interesting that every time that someone moved or sold their house that the fences could be packed and removed to their new location.

Anyway, Contact surveyor about the location of the fence again, Simply ask about the fence location in relation to the boundary opinion that he platted. If he replies in a positive manner, ask for a revision of the plat in order that you and your neighbor can resolve any issues and live in peace and harmony blah blah bah.
Continue to be civil with your new neighbor and hopefully they will be civil also in this matter. A good neighbor would remove the fence and learn their lesson that they should have g a survey performed before the act if sale.

If in the end and you correct, does the one foot strip necessitate removal of the fence? I would think that if you have a good neighbor, you would want to keep the fence in place and have some document signed and notarized stating that the fence is a fence for good neighbors of Phoenix, AZ and it is not to be construed as a fence showing ownership etc. by way of a survey performed by so and so on such a date when.
Like I said before, do not lose sleep over thus new fence or relatively new fence. Let Reason RING here.
In my opinion, a good neighbor is a valuable improvement to any property but that is a little abstract for many.
Avoid the attorneys, if you can, They add a another level to the playing field so to speak which may have nothing to do with your problem.

Before you consider hiring another surveyor, give this one a chance to explain, and correct his drawing if needed.

Some things to consider are:

The person you spoke with on the phone might not have been the same person who did the survey in the field, did the drafting, or signed the survey. There could have been a breakdown in communication at the office, after you stressed the importance of knowing where the fence is.

Sounds like the surveyor is behind and has people working Saturday to make up for it. Not that it's an excuse, but the drafting might be sub-par in that situation.

There is possibly an explanation as to why the fence doesn't appear as you expected. Perhaps you are misreading the survey, or the line really isn't where you think it is, or the fence is set so far back onto the neighbor's property that it doesn't need to be shown. The fact that one of the corners is an X in someone's driveway is troubling. That usually means a driveway encroachment, unless there is an easement to allow for that. There might be bigger issues, here. Give the surveyor a chance to explain.

First, unless the municipality has some requirement for a "report" associated with fence disputes you won't get one. It will be a survey.

Second, check the notations and legend thoroughly. Maybe the symbol used for the property corner has a note in the legend saying it's 1.3ft west of fence corner. With so much information to convey often maps get very cluttered making it easy to miss something that's already there.

Third, ask the surveyor to explain it/fix it. If it's truly not what you wanted and you actually hired a registered surveyor I am sure he or she will make it right.

Steve

The map is the report , can you read the map. You say the map was late , late for what ? I give people time estimates all the time sometimes we miss. I would be more concerned you watch them build the fence with telling them it was over the line . Call the surveyor and let him explain before getting to excited, he may have a good reason.

What you really need is two things:
1. a map showing the line in question and the fence you are concerned about, and a few distances from the line to the fence.
2. monuments along the line so that you can stand and touch and look and discuss.
3. maybe a "report" letter explaining what he did and why in simple plain English.

What you need to do is ask the surveyor to return to the site, set additional monuments along the line and then prepare a second map showing what you need it to show (the property line, the fence, and maybe some building walls and other features). Yes, you will need to pay him to do that, but in his defense it is actually unusual for surveyors to provide those services (or think to offer them).

Surveyors often use lingo and don't use plain English. Sorry for that. But I have a hard time accepting a "report" is actually a "map" but so be it.
I am registered in Az but only practiced there for a couple years, those Minimum Standards (to me) are rather vague and are regularly ignored or interpreted differently by many.
It is very unusual for surveys to show much more than monuments, lines, measurements, and recording data. Not very helpful for you. Most surveyors think "points" as in "corners of the property" and kind of ignore "lines" between those points. Logical in a way, that's what we usually set in the ground, but Kinda Crazy because you could care less about corners... you need to know where the lines are... if those points are not intervisible you have squat.

yes, good neighbors are hard to come by. make an agreement once you have the facts clear.

A scribe in the shape of a cross does not meet Arizona's minimum standards for surveys.

First of all, it is not worth losing any sleep over and second, "square one" was when the fence was under construction by the contractor. If as you stated by your knowledge that it was being erected over the property line by a foot It seems that you had knowledge of the line to "one foot" accuracy and hired the surveyor to validate your knowledge of the line. It would be good to know the time line of events here. Construction of fence, your notice of fence, new neighbor taking occupancy of house, your notice to neighbor about fence and your initial contact with surveyor. Some here may want to discuss the principle of estoppel about this fence.

Actually no, I did not have knowledge it was over my line by a foot. My house being on the outer edge of a horse shoe like street, the lines are very confusing. To add to the confusion, the wall is on the line, but the outside corner of the wall is off and slanted at an odd angle. Draw a straight line of the outer corner and it's a line into my property. That's what the contractor followed not the wall. By standing at ground level looking at the wooden fence you cannot really tell. Get 8 feet up on a ladder and it's as clear as day.

OK Corey, that I gotta see. I think we need a photo. Grab your pocket snappy and a ladder and give us a picture of the wall.

Dave

Bruce and JB are spot on for AZ. The Minimum Standards are explicit in this case.

"My neighbor bought the house and moved in next door. My house is on the outer corner of a street that is like a horse shoe. Very similar to a home in a cul-de-sac. Both of my property lines are at odd angles. The contractor hired by the investors who flipped the home did not follow the property line and built a fence over a foot on my property. A foot may not seem like very much but my front yard is not that big and I would like to keep what I am paying for.

So I called a surveyor and explained my problem. I was very specific about the neighbors fence in my yard and that I needed proof to take legal action. ."

I am just replying to your opening comment. Your details are sketchy so expect sketchy replies.

Yes, I agree. Lots with irregular polygon shapes on irregular curved streets may pose many problems. Especially lots where builders try to squeeze in large homes (sq.footage) where the lots weren't designed for such homes. This does create problems for contractors dealing with non-congruent lines. Sometimes because of cost factors or just plain machismo, they try to solve these problems on the fly.

One must look at the original S/D plan to examine the survey markers (monuments) that existed at the time of creating the lots.
For instance, there may have been monuments set for point of curvature or reverse curvature along the street that exist to delineate the geometry of the street. These survey markers have no meaning to the side lot lines except as reference marks but sometimes by bad subdivision design will fall very close to property corners. Homeowners, contractors and even surveyors at times have been known to misidentify these markers as lot corners precipitating blunders in the boundary of the lot.
This could open a Pandora's box. Trying to survey a lot without previous surveys and the original s/d pan is very poor procedure. Research is always a vital step to boundary resolution.
Another red flag is that you are asking the surveyor to provide the "needed proof to take legal action"in this matter. This shows that you are already predisposed to involve legal system. Sometimes this is a indicator that there is something more than a dispute over a 1 foot encroachment.
You made the correct decision to have the lot surveyed, I think that you need to follow up on the matter with the surveyor.

Corey, I am in Arkansas.

If I were the surveyor, I'd be ashamed, and apologizing. So, keep riding this til you get what you need.

It has amazed me, how many surveys have problems. Some are BIG problems.

Nate

Just a comment.
In the city where I live one needs a Building Permit to install a fence anywhere near the property lines.
The owner having the fence built needs to get written permission from the adjoining neighbors.

That being said it didn't help me too much.
But having documentation that no permission was given may give you some standing.
Neighbor built fence. I never got any notification or signed any document.
His other side neighbor did get notification and signed permission.
I, for various reasons, was not aware of the activity until alerted by a different neighbor.
Fence was 6 ft onto my property. He had removed my markers so wasn't sure where line was. It was a deliberate act.
Went to city but of course they say they are not "police" and I need to pursue legal action. (where was the Building Inspector? Ha-Ha)
Result was that I had to resurvey, send registered letter & map (showing fence with offset distances of course) to offending neighbor.
Waited a couple of months then removed the fence MYSELF using a winch. (keeping all the materials)
I say if the fence is on MY property I can do what I want with it.
No problems after that. He put in new fence on correct line about a year later.
Must be dealt with or after varying amounts of time your neighbor acquires a Prescriptive Easement and then it's to late. CA it's 5 years.
I know many, many people with that problem.
But be positive where the line is!

PS he even put in a gate to my side. probably to make it easier to steal avocados.

You hired a surveyor to do a very specific and limited job for you. He has yet to give you a product with the specific data requested, thus the contract is not complete.
He is obligated to provide you with the data that you specifically requested in order to complete the job as ordered before he can expect ANY payment,
Call him back and ask him when he will provide the specific survey that you ordered, because what he has provided so far does NOT address ANY of the specific items that you requested.
Calmly explain that what you ordered was a plat showing your property line and the relationship between that line and the existing fence line in detail.
Being that his "drawing" does not even show the fence (a State Requirement) you cannot possibly pay for anything until the contract is completed and you are provided with a plat showing ALL of the specific data that you requested.

"Before you consider hiring another surveyor, give this one a chance to explain"
There is your answer. Have the surveyor walk the lines with you and the neighbor with the map in hand.

I'll post some pics tomorrow when my neighbor is at work. He is not at all a rational person and if he sees me up on a ladder taking pictures, he may take revenge at my house again with his bb gun.

Where ever you live, being fired upon is a situation that is easily fixed.

I know a man in Wood County that got 7yrs in State Prison for that very act.

:-O

I have 3 yes THREE incident reports in a 24 hour period from the Phoenix PD. THEY ARE WORTHLESS and only care about DUI revenue for their pay and pensions..