i'll be out doing a 20 mile run over the donner pass in a couple weeks, does that count?
If you learn to back a team into a loading dock, you pretty much have the confidence to accomplish anything!
I think that this is short sighted and self laudatory. I started with a transit and "chain" but I sure wouldn't expect a new student or even a new PLS to know how to set up a fixed legged tripod and read a vernier from my ol' K&E Paragon 20" instrument. It would take me a while to figure it out actually!
I, also, wouldn't like my doctor to start placing leeches because "That's the way they used to do it." Or my dentist to start working without first applying Novocain because "Back in the old days they didn't have Novocain."
We're not so great because we used transits, we're not any different than the "new breed" except that they are better educated in areas that I am lacking.
Give it a rest 🙂
We are guardians of historical data. It makes sense that we respect those who went before us and created the paths we need to follow today.
In today's cell phone/there's-an-app-for-that-world it is easy to forget how fragile we have become to the harsh realities of the real world. We frequently put ourselves in places where true hazards exist but we ignore them because we have the miracle cure with a few pokes at the cell phone screen............................................................until we don't. We can't allow our collective view of the art of field surveying to become so naive.
LRDay, post: 385689, member: 571 wrote: I dunno, should one be required to drive a team and wagon over the Oregon Trail before they get a drivers license?
No because most people do not need to know how to drive wagons, or vehicles from the past to drive the cars of the present, However Surveyors need to know and understand how Surveyors from past did their work so we can retrace it.
These folks are the real deal and the keepers of the flame of the historical past.
They aren't self-proclaimed Internet forum mouths.
Yes, it is a regretful that nowadays some will never experience the procedures of the past but their mental acumen should negate that problem.
http://www.surveyorshistoricalsociety.com/organization.php
This rendezvous looks excellent. Lake George is such a beautiful place in the USA.
Somehow if the new breed or younger (and older)surveyors can attain CEUs.
It would be a win-win
I know I wish I could be there.
[USER=38]@Rich Leu[/USER]
[USER=378]@Robert Hill[/USER]
I've seen that before using @ and the name. Do you just type it that way and then the person you are addressing is alerted? I am typing this as an experiment. I tried to find an explanation of it but I didn't find it. Maybe I was looking in all the wrong places
Okay, it seemed to work.
Tom Adams, post: 385714, member: 7285 wrote: [USER=378]@Robert Hill[/USER]
I've seen that before using @ and the name. Do you just type it that way and then the person you are addressing is alerted? I am typing this as an experiment. I tried to find an explanation of it but I didn't find it. Maybe I was looking in all the wrong placesOkay, it seemed to work.
[USER=7285]@Tom Adams[/USER]
Yes it sends an alert that you have been mentioned in a post by the poster
Tom Adams, post: 385668, member: 7285 wrote: Are you talking about Nate-the-Surveyor's example? Or one involving Cooley? Maybe I was mis-speaking above.
i honestly don't even know anymore- this thread has gone so many different directions.
Okay, so I haven't read ALL of the posts yet (most of them though), so maybe somebody already said this (or something to the same effect).
10 (or 20, or 30) years of experience may or may NOT mean all that much!
A year of experience doing [say] lot & block surveys downtown, or retracing PLSS Sections in BFE, REPEATED 10 or 20, or 30 times, does NOT equal 10 or 20 or 30 years of broad ranging experience in many different types of surveys or locals.
Doing the same thing, the same way, over and over again, is just that. It "should" make you very qualified to do THAT, but doesn't necessarily make you qualified to do anything else.
Just my 2 bits.
Loyal
It is rather obvious that the Missouri surveyors believe this to be rather important stuff. On August 20 they will be gathering at Fort Osage National Historic Landmark in Sibley, MO to get into the old timey stuff in a big way. Much of the focus is on the early treaties and the surveying of the treaty lines. One of the featured speakers is Dick Elgin speaking on: The Evolution of the American Compass, from Plain to Solar, and ' Finding the Variation' ".
I should have some recreators come out and retrace the survey lines I did earlier this spring, now THAT would be a survey with a compass and chain, I'm sure glad I didn't have to do it that way. Even those boys hit a spot that they said was too steep and triangulated in a line. If it was too steep for them you can rest assured it was too steep for anyone. Surveying used to mean really being in shape.
Holy Cow, post: 385754, member: 50 wrote: It is rather obvious that the Missouri surveyors believe this to be rather important stuff. On August 20 they will be gathering at Fort Osage National Historic Landmark in Sibley, MO to get into the old timey stuff in a big way. Much of the focus is on the early treaties and the surveying of the treaty lines. One of the featured speakers is Dick Elgin speaking on: The Evolution of the American Compass, from Plain to Solar, and ' Finding the Variation' ".
I believe that Dick Elgin has been a serious collector of early survey instruments and gear for 30 years or so.
I don't know if anyone remembers Norman Brown, PLS from Missouri.
He was the original historical recreator way back when. He was also the state surveyor for Missouri.
I use to have a picture of him peeping at the camera through a peep site compass from an old POB cover.
He set the bar very high for everyone.
That would be the one in the center of this photo
There was another Norman Brown who was a well-known Missouri surveyor. I believe both are now deceased.
I started a new thread for the Missouri event with what info I could quickly find. If you have any more, please post it there.
https://surveyorconnect.com/community/threads/historical-surveying-demonstration-in-missouri.327842/
Robert Hill, post: 385711, member: 378 wrote: These folks are the real deal and the keepers of the flame of the historical past.
They aren't self-proclaimed Internet forum mouths.
Yes, it is a regretful that nowadays some will never experience the procedures of the past but their mental acumen should negate that problem.http://www.surveyorshistoricalsociety.com/organization.php
This rendezvous looks excellent. Lake George is such a beautiful place in the USA.
Somehow if the new breed or younger (and older)surveyors can attain CEUs.
It would be a win-win
I know I wish I could be there.
[USER=38]@Rich Leu[/USER]
Mr. Hill is spot on here. I've been following this thread with some interest and had a few thoughts to add but time is my enemy. Let me leave you tonight with these thoughts. Having studied Adirondack surveyor Verplanck Colvin (1872 - 1900) for about 16 years now, I can say the challenges we face as surveyors today are little different than in Colvin's time. Only the tools have changed.
I'll go out on a limb here and say aside from learning math/statistics and current regs. a person reading all of Colvins reports would have the majority of the law/procedure
needed to pass the LS exam (colonial states).
Respectfully,
Jim Vianna
SHS Rendezvous 2016 Chair
foggyidea, post: 385699, member: 155 wrote: I think that this is short sighted and self laudatory. I started with a transit and "chain" but I sure wouldn't expect a new student or even a new PLS to know how to set up a fixed legged tripod and read a vernier from my ol' K&E Paragon 20" instrument. It would take me a while to figure it out actually!
I, also, wouldn't like my doctor to start placing leeches because "That's the way they used to do it." Or my dentist to start working without first applying Novocain because "Back in the old days they didn't have Novocain."
We're not so great because we used transits, we're not any different than the "new breed" except that they are better educated in areas that I am lacking.
Give it a rest 🙂
I agree and disagree at the same time. I'm 32. I'm extremely good with technology, however I have never actually used a compass and tape before.
Do I think surveyors today need to? I think it can help in CERTAIN retracements. Definitely depending on the area and what's being retraced. A plss section? Sure. A lot created in a 1965 plat? Maybe not so much....
The doctors examples don't work too much. I would run if I saw leaches coming for me in the doctors hands.
The problem is, the old methods of doctoring wouldn't be welcome because they might produce DIFFERENT RESULTS than the new methods. This would directly contradict why someone might use a compass. The new surveying technology might produce different results than the old equipment did, which is exactly what we don't want. Getting the same results as the person originally did is the correct answer to the surveying puzzle and this may be better attained using the same equipment as the original did.
Although I don't use a compass (I'm never usually in a spot to need to as any retracement work I do is not very old and I'm not in a plss state) I do try and put myself in the shoes of a person surveying with a tape when I find old monuments that are not called for. I ask myself, would I be happy if I was taping and found this? Or is it so 'off' I would think it's wrong? If it's close enough that I would be happy I came some close measuring with a tape, then I flag it up and move on.
Kind of my mixed style I have adopted
Ok seeing as I've read most of the replies,but not all,I'm going on a limb here. Out here in our little 3rd world country in the south tip of africa things are slightly different.
Here all surveyors are supposed to have some form of formal education. Minimum 3 years which includes 1 year of practical training and then you are a survey tech. Add another 2 years of school then you're a surveyor. Or do 4 years first and then 1 year prac then PLS. I went the 3 years then 2 years route,but preceeded all that with 3 years from scratch.
In that 3 years my first encounter with a gun was a 1203 leica and 1200 leica gpa and 150 sprinter level. I could traverse, set out,as built, static,rtk etc but didnt always understand all I was doing or how it worked. All my work was checked by a PLS or tech and they tried explaining as much as they could.
I then went and studied and wlfrlt like I was in a time machine. Back to a T2, tapes and stadia distances. Some time to learn what was going in and where but lesrnt quickly and I appreciste how it was done 50+ years ago and understand how to do it all long hand. Maybe not as perfectly as the guys who did it 24/7 in 1945 but I understand the principles. This does make a diff in my workflow,but doenst define it.
On the other hand we have classmate of mine working at our firm. Qualified survey tech but cant work the S3,5 or 6, cant work a GPS properly. I'm not too sure if she can actually do it the old way either,but the point is that she is the norm rather than the expection. Out of 50 odd students when I started my studies maybe 10 could setup a tripod over a point in less than 5 minutes after 3 years of studies. That shocking. And that hasnt improved at all. So while I understand the need to comprehend how it was dine in 1920 or even before that (our survey records go back to maybe to 1830) the need for grads to actually be able to work or atelast work under supervision is also important. I not going to pretend I do cadastral work all that much. I'm a specialised engineering surveyor so I spend maybe 20% of my time doing property stuff so maybe I'm wrong, but a grad who can do a resection by hand with a T2 but cant do it with a S6 is fairly useless to me.
Just my thoughts and experience
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A degree in surveying should not mean you are a quality tech at graduation. You should have a vast knowledge of the history of the profession, the rules and laws that bound us, as well as a basic understanding on the newer equipment being used. The idea that fresh out of college you can operate any cad system or data collection system is absurd. Just on this board they are five or six different cad programs, and every maker has its own software that's different from the rest.
Dennis Mouland was the speaker at the 2015 Mississippi Association of Professional Surveyors Convention that hit home on this matter. He stressed the importance of taking into account the technology used, and the standards at the time of parcel creation, when deciding on accepting or rejecting corners. He makes the distinction of being a surveyor or just an expert measurer. Great presentation that is well worth your time. Maybe Amber can get him scheduled as a speaker for the next ASPS conference (?).