Finding the corner?

Mr Detail,

I grew up surveying. I know how to use a transit, and tape, and TRAVERSE all around 80 acres, 120 acres etc. I was running a crew, before I got a drivers license. Dad had to get a chainman to go with me, drive me to the job, etc. Kinda funny. You can buy a transit, and a 200' tape, off ebay, and a couple of good plumb bobs, and TRAVERSE this whole thing yourself. You can do it. But, there is a good deal of attention to detail you will have to get up to speed with. And, you will need some sort of COGO to calc it all up with.

Don't let the SIMPLICITY of it all get in your way. All the components are SIMPLE. But, to get it all together, and right, can be taxing. You might need a metal detector.

Many simple parts, put together correctly. That's a helicopter.

You seriously should get you a surveyor, one that will include you in his world. And will give you just enough detail to satisfy you, but not too much to grind you up.

Nate

That was excellent, Nate!

Don

The moderator is right. Most people here will tell you to hire a surveyor, as they should. There are some things you can do that might be of help, though. It depends on what your purpose is for finding your corners.

First, it's important to understand that in suvey terms, a "benchmark" usually refers to a vertical reference point, not horizontal. If your survey is 25 years old it is very unlikely that it would be referenced to any gps network, so a handheld would probably not be of much use.

Most surveyors would begin by looking for existing property markers. This is just a process of looking in the approximate area where they should be and using a shovel and metal detector to uncover them. If you find one, then you can get a better idea where the others are from record distances. If your corners are not in place, then they have to be established by what can become a complicated process.

Please, whatever you do, do not assume that any marker is your property corner or that it is in the correct position without verification. Doing so can cause problems for yourself, your neighbors, and future surveyors. A surveyor will not only find your corners, but verify them against surrounding corners and records.

Excellent replies from both Nate and Chris. Well said gentlemen.

don't get hung up on the point of beginning. look for the physical evidence and match it up with the deed.

> O.K., guys please go easy on me here. I have already been warned by the moderator over at "Professional Surveyor.com" that most of you will direct me to use a surveyor for what I am about to ask.
>
> I am a homeowner who wants to better understand a beginning point so I might compute my own property lines for a newly purchased home. Let it be known that I also am an engineer in a different field (Boeing Helicopters).

How are you going to "compute" your property corners?

> What I need to understand is how to pinpoint one of the corners of my property. I have a print of a Title Plan of my development (25 years old) with the description in "Metes and bounds". I am on the east coast.
>
> The following is the exact wording in the description of my property (Lot No. 60).
>
> BEGINNING at a point on the Northerly side of Charter Oak Drive, a corner of Lot No. 59 on said plan;

As anybody that does surveying on a day-to-day basis would know, you would need a copy of the subdivision plat (or plan). The plan would show the widths of the streets (also called right-of-ways, even if it is owned in fee by the jurisdiction in which you reside). The call of "BEGINNING at a point on the Northerly side of Charter Oak Drive..." means that it is on the northern edge of the street line. Note: the street line is NOT the edge of the pavement or asphalt or curb and gutter. The beginning point is also a common corner to Lot 59.

> How do I locate that "point"? I have read about survey benchmarks but it would seem that they are usually miles away from where I live. Unless I had a hand held GPS, how would I ever get close? What did they do before GPS was invented?

On the copy of the subdivision plan there is probably a note that says something like "unless otherwise noted, all lot corners and points of curvature, tangency, or deflection are marked by 5/8" (or 1/2" or some other size) iron rods/rebars/pins/pipes/axles/etc." Those were set by the original surveyor as the lot corners. Often after they were put in then the utilities were put in (if you have them). So your marker could be right by a water meter, water valve, telephone pedestal, cable pedestal, etc., or it could have been taken out by the installation of said utilities

> Is there some benchmark in my development perhaps?

Your development probably has no "benchmark" within it, at least not in the way that licensed land surveyors think of benchmarks (nationally published disks in concrete for high accuracy horizontal and/or vertical reference), but there are probably lots and lots of iron markers that define the lot corners.

> Thanks in advance for any tips.

TIP: I suggest that you call a local licensed land surveyor and get your property surveyed properly.

Carl

> Many simple parts, put together correctly. That's a helicopter.

That is fantastic, thank you.

What you are wanting to do for yourself is much like making your own personal medical decisions based on what you read in magazines rather than consulting a trained physician. The key difference is that when diagnosing your own personal medical issues you pretty much won't hurt anyone but yourself, if you don't count the loved ones who will miss you when you are gone years too soon. Deciding where your boundary is located is coincidental with deciding where the boundaries of your numerous neighbors are located as well. Would you want them deciding where your boundaries are located? Once you arrive at some conclusion, how do you plan to protect yourself in court when an injured neighbor sues you for all sorts of legal issues that may arise out of your misguided attempt? Do you plan to go into court after you study a bunch of legal magazines or would you employ an attorney to save your neck? Some things are simply not worth taking the risk.

As a Professional Engineer, I will not pursue projects for which I do not have the appropriate training and experience. As a Professional Land Surveyor, I will not pursue projects for which I do not have the appropriate training and experience. I recommend you follow suit.

Maybe You Could Help Me Build My Own Helicopter?

Paul in PA

> Thanks in advance for any tips.

I hope you have a thick skin.
What these guys are saying in various manners is: It is way over your head.
The questions you ask proves my point.
You may be very smart, you probably are, but too uninformed to understand the basic issues involved.

Find a local scout troop, get all the info they publish for the boys to earn various survey and mapping merit badges. Earn those badges.
Then come back and rephrase your question.

good luck!

How do I locate that "point"? I have read about survey benchmarks but it would seem that they are usually miles away from where I live.?

Benchmarks have nothing to do with locating properties. A bench mark is an elevation point set to determine elevations, and for the most part are not tied into horizontal control.

No offense partner, but where is folks getting the idea that GPS is something magic about locating corners. I hear it here locally almost every day. Geewhiz.

What you are wanting to do for yourself is much like making your own personal medical decisions based on what you read in magazines rather than consulting a trained physician

Hey, I resent that remark!!!

I don't look at magazines, I use WedMD!!;-)

Don't let all these people talk you out of doing it yourself.

I have a question for you, I have a engineering degree, in civil engineering to be exact, can I design and work on helicopters?

A "Bench Mark" (two words) is a vertical mark in the ground that has a known elevation by which you will determine other elevations.

A "benchmark" is a "standard against which something can be measured or assessed."

At a certain level I think one could consider a "point of beginning" or "point of commencement" and could also consider a "bench mark" as being a sort of (one-word) "benchmark"; but that is not really a survey term except for the elevation Bench Mark.

You would find the point of commencement, by looking at public records. In this case the subdivision map that established lot 59 (or whatever lot that was). You would also need to compare it to other corners of the lot and perhaps the point of commencement for that subdivision to make sure you have the correct lot-corner monument. You may even need to reestablish that lot corner in order to have your point of commencement in the ground.

If you think you're going to survey in your lot using GPS, you need to really know what you are doing. There probably isn't a real spherical coordinate on your point of commencement, so you need to do relative bearings and distances from it. You also need to use 'survey=grade' equipment if you want to get accurate. I wouldn't advise setting your corners, but if you can get close, at least you could visually see the approximate limits of your property. You might also dig for corner monuments. I wouldn't rely on monuments, however, without a surveyor. Another concern, is the adjoiner's property lines. You need to keep in mind that your 'property line' is also someone else's. If those points don't match, you need to know which is senior to which.

If I were you, I would be using only my intellect to be able to see your approximate corner locations (look at the fences if there are any, and you might not have to go through this exercise).

You might have a rudimentary idea of how to survey, but to get down to establishing the actual corners, you need to have a knowledgeable land surveyor out there.

> ... I have a engineering degree, in civil engineering to be exact, can I design and work on helicopters?

Of course not Mr. Livingstone, civil engineers aren't as intelligent as mechanical engineers. Now if you had a PhD in mathematics or were a theoretical physicist, they're smarter than ME's.

He is applying a common misconception. The thinking that knowing trigonometry, is the sole knowledge-base of a land surveyor and anyone who has had calculus can do boundary surveying. It's not a matter of intelligence per se as it is a technical knowledge of boundary, boundary law, and some math.

The best way to learn

[sarcasm]how to survey is to hire one and follow him around all day asking questions. You should also tell him, when he finds something, tell him that you don't think it's right. Try, also, to look through his instrument when he isn't looking and hold on to the tripod real tight. When he's all done, tell him you'll mail his check as soon as your settlement comes through.

Now you'll know all you'll ever need to know about surveyors and what they do.[/sarcasm]

I'm happy to have my clients around to be honest. As long as you don't touch my 'quipments, I'll take you through the whole process. Maybe you'd benefit from hiring one and tagging along.

GPS. It ain't all the same

GPS is a nice handy dandy tool.

You can buy a hunter's grade gps like a Garmin E-trex, etc for 100.00. You can go to a stake in a field, set it on top of the stake, let it settle down, and SAVE that point. Then, put it in your pocket, walk around a bit, return, and repeat. After you save it like that say, 10 times, you can go across the field and repeat it on another stake.

Then, you can take it home, and download all the shots you took. I'd guess that they all would be within 10 feet of each other. IF you took the average point, in that pile of 10 coords, and the average in the second pile of coords, then you probably would have an accuracy of 3-4 feet, between the shots. (That is, now measure with a tape, between them).

Surveyors grade GPS costs around $25,000 each. We who buy these units, also have to learn how to use them, and now our accuracy at each point is down around 0.05' each. With an error potential, of 0.10' between any 2 given points. This would be with RTK GPS. There are ways to bring this down some, such as post processing, and opus etc.

I know how to fly a helicopter. You have a twist throttle in the left hand, and collective pitch control, when you pull up on the handle. In your right hand, you have Cyclic Pitch control. Then, with your feet, you have "rudder" which collectively changes the pitch on the tail rotor.

But, even though I know where these controls are, and what they do, I have NOT put them all together. I would not be a safe pilot. In fact, I would NOT fly your helicopter, because I would surly kill myself, and you too, if you were in it with me. Putting it all together, takes work, time, practice, and that is why you need a surveyor. You also would NOT want me to "Fix, or repair, or maintain" your helicopter. Even though many of the parts are simple. Getting it together, is what takes the investment of several years. IF we told you the basics, we might get you close or in the vicinity. If you crash a survey, you will not die, (but you may meet Mrs Dominant Matriarch, of the 3rd lagoon, and get a boatload of her opinion!) But you will have a wrong answer. Maybe 500' off, or 50' off, or 5' off, or .5' off, or 0.05' off. It takes a surveyor, with knowledge, and experience to quantify his errors, manage them, and make it all fly. Welcome to our world. Want to save some money? Hmmm drop your accuracy. Most folks can get within a few miles. If that is good enough for you, you don't need a survey. To have a manageable error level, takes knowledge, and experience. All rotary wing pilots make mistakes. Little ones, don't matter. The landing gear can adsorb a bit of shock, in a hard landing. But, if the Jesus nut falls off, well, get ready to meet Jesus. It takes a surveyor to quantify these errors. And, to know the difference between the Jesus nut, and the landing gear bolts.
We all like to tackle new things. Is this your new thing? Get ready to invest time and energy.

We are not pulling your leg.

We made the investment.

Nate

Even if successful, you will never know if the markers you find are actually the bounds of your property.

Someone that knows what they are doing could probably find some evidence with a compass, cloth tape, metal detector, and a shovel. Just takes a little common sense. But as I said before you will be making an assumption as to what that evidence represents....

If you didn't take the advice given on the other board, I doubt you will gain anything further here.