I just heard of something that I think is a little disturbing, but I wanted some more input.
A good friend of mine that lives several hours away was talking with me tonight about some local low ballers. He said that someone drove a half hour to survey a lot that joins his office for $300. I told him to not worry because he won't be in business for long working like that. He told me that the other guy made money on that job. ?????? He said that the other guy doesn't have any employees. He just gives them half of whatever the cost of the survey is. So in this case, he got $150 and the crew got $150. He said that the crew are independent contractors.
I have two problems with this. First, how can you possibly be in responsible charge of these guys? My other problem is this. You have unlicensed field personnel that whose financial interest is best served by hurrying up and doing a half @ss job. Suppose they survey a lot and you send them back to set pins. Why should they set them? That costs them money.
My friend told me that there is at least one other firm that he knows that operates this way and he has heard rumors that the next town over is full of surveyors that operate in this manner.
What do y'all think?
> I told him to not worry because he won't be in business for long working like that. {...}
> What do y'all think?
Um, I'm thinking that they may not have their licenses for very long, let alone be in business. Those are all surveyors who ought not to have licenses in the first place, so I can't see it as any great loss.
You cannot offer such services in Tennessee if you are not licensed.
How do you get the PLS is not in as much control of what gets turned out by a contractor as with his own employees? Because he has the power to fire them?
Quality is it's own reference. I see slipshod work all the time from full time employees, and have survived for a while as a contractor to licensed professionals. Some work with me in the field, some don't.
I'm always looking for ways to better present myself and my services, please point out how you see a less than professional product from a contractor.
No worse than one licensed individual sitting in the office and running 10 crews.
The crews only work for the surveyor.
You point is duely noted, but has nothing to do with this situation.
My main problem is not so much the crew not being on the surveyor's payroll as much as the pay arrangement. It is not in these guys financial interest to do a goob job.
Agreed.
It is ALWAYS in any field crew's best interest to do a good job, or at least has always been in mine.
If there are problems due to lack of or inaccurately collected and reported data, I don't get called back.
If the principle doesn't make money, I don't get called back.
In this day and age, many professionals are struggling to just find the money to pay for CEU's, license renewal, and E/O insurance. Several of the local PE's, PLS's, architects and environmental scientists are either digging out of the ashes of bankruptcy or staving it off, four big firms went belly up in the last year and two more are on the verge. I can survive until things get better by providing them with field work until they can afford to hire their own crews. I do one job a month for some of them, others a few jobs a week, others a week's work every few months.
Trust me, there is nothing I would love better than to be a full time employee again and let someone else worry about quarterly taxes.
This is a very bad problem. The fee structure is very different in CA, so I cannot imagine doing much of anything for $300. I would normally spend that much doing premliminary research to see if I am interested in taking the job or not.
These types of operatiion really hurt the profession in the long run. Because the fee is so low, I doubt there is any consideration by anyone involved as to what exactly they are required to do in order to properly provide a professional service.
Being among the long term unemployed myself, I would jump at the chance for any work that pays my bills, contract or not. For me, it would not at all diminish my responsibility to do the job to the best of my ability. If I didn't, where is the incentive for the employer to continue using my services? I would certainly hope that anybody who did shoddy work would be dropped, contract or not.
From my perspective, it seems as if most companies are still too scared or simply unable to hire full time people at this time. To me, some of the issue is tied to the lack of consistent work... the foreclosure mess is obviously still biting us all in the hind parts.
Whenever things might begin to rebound, it seems that many of the surveying positions will never return. Local employers have even told me as much. One reason is due to technology allowing for one person to do more work.... the other reason being many companies discovering they can put more work on present employees and not rehire for the abolished positions. I saw that happening a few years ago... expecting some already overloaded people to do more work in the same time frame with no more compensation (effectively reducing their pay). The other less observed results are burnout and lesser quality work resulting directly from trying to cram a 23 hour day in to 16 hours (some of us still need some sleep for some reason). When an engineer (just an example, please nobody take offense) does not have the physical time to check drawings, mistakes slip through. Yes, I have seen that happen. When there is not enough time for work to be done properly and the checkers have all been fired or laid off, everybody suffers.
Stop whining and worry about yourself.
There's a company around here that has thrived for at least 15 years doing just that.
They barely hang on to their existence, low balling at every turn.
:coffee:
Dane, I sincerely hope you never are in the situation of finding out just what you will do to put food on the table. I can devote a week to a 300 dollar job, including research, field work, and cad work. That, with my wife's unemployment, will get us through the week.
I still have the odd construction job that bills at my usual rate, but they are short term and temporary. Construction contractors are estimating jobs for less, and have less to spend on stakeout. After attempting (and failing for the most part) to do it themselves, they are more than happy to hire someone with experience.
I'm also seeing more engineers and surveyors out of their comfort zones, doing construction work with varying degrees of success. Ironically, I've been underbid by these folks, can't envision a firm being able to afford to do it for less than a guy with all equipment paid for working solo.
This is everywhere in Florida. There is are companies that advertises $200 for any subdivision lot in Florida, and $95 el certs. I wrote a letter a few months ago to the BOR inquiring about the legality of it and they never wrote back. My understanding for one company is they pay the crew $75 per job as an independant contractor, it's up to the crew cheif to hire a helper or do it solo.
P.L.
> Dane, I sincerely hope you never are in the situation of finding out just what you will do to put food on the table. I can devote a week to a 300 dollar job, including research, field work, and cad work. That, with my wife's unemployment, will get us through the week.
>
> I still have the odd construction job that bills at my usual rate, but they are short term and temporary. Construction contractors are estimating jobs for less, and have less to spend on stakeout. After attempting (and failing for the most part) to do it themselves, they are more than happy to hire someone with experience.
>
> I'm also seeing more engineers and surveyors out of their comfort zones, doing construction work with varying degrees of success. Ironically, I've been underbid by these folks, can't envision a firm being able to afford to do it for less than a guy with all equipment paid for working solo.
Agreed. You WILL take jobs that suck, are undesirable, you know you will lose money on, etc to pay bills, keep crews working, and feed your family. After the point of diminishing returns, you won't, but until that point, you will do what it takes to feed your children and clothe your family.
thats what i am hearing about one particular company here in San Antonio - a flat rate for the contracted party chief - he then hires, or not, his help. I am hearing this particular company even outsources the drafting.
I've also heard $7-$15 per job for drafting (outsourced), and the draftsman uses a title block with the RLSs signature and an image of the seal scanned in ...
I have no problem with contract labor - had to do it once to also survive - but i didnt compromise quality - there seems to be a fine line of losing control of a given situation.
