Certifications on land transfer

"Has this nonsense become the norm in your area?"

No,I put my foot down, I only certify to the buyer, their bank and their title company. All other parties I firmly tell them No. Once I had a lawyer who wanted along with the normal parties the survey certified to himself and his paralegal. He got a very firm No.

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No certifications needed in WA or ID unless you're doing an ALTA.?ÿ

It is quite variable here but not unusual to see around 7 parties or so on a sale:?ÿ buyer, buyer attorney, seller, seller attorney, bank, bank attorney, title co.

Texas accepts "your signature and your crimped seal" as your complete certification of any survey to tell the world that you have made the survey in accordance with all the guidelines and accomplished this by considering any other factoring data needed to properly perform your duty.

There is no need for any other words to satisfy our Texas Board of Professional Land Surveyors.

IMVHO, all this other verbage is a pile of poo just to mention all the people that will eventually take your survey and use is over and over and intentionaly leaving you out of receiving any fee from each future transaction. It is them requiring for you to give them the rights to your work. That in itself is a product that most forget to include in their prices. It turns a $2k survey into a $5k or more because it will be used until no copies of your crimped seal can be found and that is the day you get the call for you to dig that info out of your data and print new copies, sign, crimp and provide a renewal permit to some person that has never had any intention of paying you a fee for your past work while they will be receiving their 6% of a selling price and providing some mortgage company monthly interest and some family a hopeful profit and nestegg to add to their bank account and you have done all this for free.

That is the day to use your big boy nads and remember one word - NO.

refresher course here

the sole purpose of a certification is to show "privity of contract" to the named individuals so that when they sue you they can already show that they have standing. Its one less hoop for them to jump through in the legal process.

Never certify to third parties unless substantially compensated. Here it is only your client, bank & title company. (See NYSAPLS code)

Lawyers ask for it from time to time as they would like to pass the buck onto the surveyor which I find comical seeing how they write the title insurance, no conflict of interest there, ha ha.

When other parties try to be added to a certification I give them a qoute equal to the cost of the survey. Never had one take me up on it and the deal closes just fine.

Suggest having a conversation with your E&O carrier to see how they feel about you entering into privity of contract with non compensating third parties.

Jim

Posted by: A Harris

Texas accepts "your signature and your crimped seal" as your complete certification of any survey to tell the world that you have made the survey in accordance with all the guidelines and accomplished this by considering any other factoring data needed to properly perform your duty.

There is no need for any other words to satisfy our Texas Board of Professional Land Surveyors.

IMVHO, all this other verbage is a pile of poo just to mention all the people that will eventually take your survey and use is over and over and intentionaly leaving you out of receiving any fee from each future transaction. It is them requiring for you to give them the rights to your work. That in itself is a product that most forget to include in their prices. It turns a $2k survey into a $5k or more because it will be used until no copies of your crimped seal can be found and that is the day you get the call for you to dig that info out of your data and print new copies, sign, crimp and provide a renewal permit to some person that has never had any intention of paying you a fee for your past work while they will be receiving their 6% of a selling price and providing some mortgage company monthly interest and some family a hopeful profit and nestegg to add to their bank account and you have done all this for free.

That is the day to use your big boy nads and remember one word - NO.

Actually all that is needed is the seal, the reason is most people just see the seal and think it is a complete Survey.?ÿ

Mostly on preliminary plats you will see, "Preliminary not for recording", instead of a signature but the seal will be on the preliminary plat. The board does have a language you have to use on a preliminary plat in case it does get recorded, but I think it needs to be word for word.

Or a Surveyor will say the Survey is not complete I did not sign it, but they did use a Seal on it.

So in Texas, the Seal should be the last thing you do to a Survey.?ÿ

I don't do certifications on plats unless I have to. Otherwise it's a surveyor's statement. Be careful what you certify when you do. The wording on many certifications leaves the surveyor wide open to all kinds of lawsuits. And of course on ALTA's lawyers will try and add and add to them until you are responsible for everything.

I don't sign or seal anything that says "Preliminary"

I used to?ÿ resist doing the certs until I attended a particular continuing education class. The teacher explained how the certs actually "limit" the potential parties who have standing to sue you. He said that without the words for limitation within the cert, that untold numbers of potential parties in future years could have standing to bring suit.

Something to think about. Would you want to limit the folks who can come after you? In Florida we have a SOL that limit time to bring suit at 2 years, but that is "with knowledge" of the problem. Who is to say that it may be a number of years and many transfers of ownership before some new surveyor finds the "problem". The 2 years could likely only begin with that "knowledge".?ÿ The teacher said we were better protected to memorialize the parties.

In other words, the cert "limits" rather than "expands" the pool.

Perhaps others here know better, but I accepted teacher's advice.?ÿ

ubenhavin?ÿ

Its my understanding that there is no such thing as "privity of contract" regarding surveys. Courts have rules that it is reasonable for parties to rely on older documents, whether they had any pecuniary interest in their creation or not.

Posted by: Jim in AZ

Its my understanding that there is no such thing as "privity of contract" regarding surveys. Courts have rules that it is reasonable for parties to rely on older documents, whether they had any pecuniary interest in their creation or not.

This is probably due to different States having different laws. However if you name is on the Survey it is easier for them to Sue you. That's why Lawyers want their name on the Survey, so they get hire to Sue you.?ÿ Which is why I never add their name to the Survey.?ÿ

Posted by: Jim in AZ

Its my understanding that there is no such thing as "privity of contract" regarding surveys. Courts have rules that it is reasonable for parties to rely on older documents, whether they had any pecuniary interest in their creation or not.

correct but it is much harder for them to sue you as they didnt "pay/contract" for the survey. They then must show standing, being named in a certification does that for them.

Posted by: Scott Ellis

Posted by: A Harris

Texas accepts "your signature and your crimped seal" as your complete certification of any survey to tell the world that you have made the survey in accordance with all the guidelines and accomplished this by considering any other factoring data needed to properly perform your duty.

There is no need for any other words to satisfy our Texas Board of Professional Land Surveyors.

IMVHO, all this other verbage is a pile of poo just to mention all the people that will eventually take your survey and use is over and over and intentionaly leaving you out of receiving any fee from each future transaction. It is them requiring for you to give them the rights to your work. That in itself is a product that most forget to include in their prices. It turns a $2k survey into a $5k or more because it will be used until no copies of your crimped seal can be found and that is the day you get the call for you to dig that info out of your data and print new copies, sign, crimp and provide a renewal permit to some person that has never had any intention of paying you a fee for your past work while they will be receiving their 6% of a selling price and providing some mortgage company monthly interest and some family a hopeful profit and nestegg to add to their bank account and you have done all this for free.

That is the day to use your big boy nads and remember one word - NO.

Actually all that is needed is the seal, the reason is most people just see the seal and think it is a complete Survey.?ÿ

Mostly on preliminary plats you will see, "Preliminary not for recording", instead of a signature but the seal will be on the preliminary plat. The board does have a language you have to use on a preliminary plat in case it does get recorded, but I think it needs to be word for word.

Or a Surveyor will say the Survey is not complete I did not sign it, but they did use a Seal on it.

So in Texas, the Seal should be the last thing you do to a Survey.?ÿ

Sealing a preliminary survey would be a violation of the Texas Board PLS?ÿ rules. See excerpt below:

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Preliminary documents released from a land surveyor's control shall identify the purpose of the
document, the land surveyor of record and the land surveyor's registration number, and the release date.
Such preliminary documents shall not be signed or sealed and shall bear the following statement in the
signature space or upon the face of the document: "Preliminary, this document shall not be recorded for
any purpose and shall not be used or viewed or relied upon as a final survey document". Preliminary
documents released from the land surveyor's control which include this text in place of the l

Lee

Jim Vianna has some good comments.

It may be too late for this project, but future contracts/proposals should state you will certify?ÿ in accordance with the NYSAPLS Code of Practice?ÿ (that keeps them from coming up with those wacko certifications that are requested from time to time) to the owner or lender, depending on who is your client, his title company and lending institution. That is it.?ÿ

Often times the title company is one of the big companies, as well as the local abstract company; which is not a problem, but be sure to receive the policy you are certifying to, and include it in the certification, such as

ABC Really Big Title Company and ZYX Local Abstract Company for use with Title No. 12345678 dated February 31, 2019.

I think you are OK with charging for additional names, especially the attorneys and boyfriend.?ÿ They will probably back off.

Hope that helps.

Ken

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The attorney did back down and remove three certs. He removed the two other attorneys and the title insurance company LOL. Still no bank. Client just picked up the mylar for closing next week. I informed her that it wasn't normal and the bank may not accept it. Which could hold up the closing at the 11th hour.

Hmm, maybe the boyfriend is the bank?

My standard cert. just says survey was prepared by me or under my direct supervision.?ÿ If someone wants to sue on a contract theory they will have to prove otherwise.?ÿ Other than that, my written contract says I will provide my professional opinion of the line, set missing corners, flag existing.?ÿ Again, under a contract theory they will need to prove I didn't.?ÿ The map proves I did, the field notes or raw file prove I did.

So, the only reason these certs can be a problem is if you let them add contract language not negotiated before services rendered.?ÿ You should never do that whether certifying or not.?ÿ If they want to NYSAPLS or ALTA or some other thing at time of delivery, you give them a proposal for that service.

So, why do they want certifications??ÿ First is trickle down.?ÿ The big firms want them for ALTA so must be they're something all lawyers, etc. should have on every job.?ÿ Second is access.?ÿ They want to be able to use the survey for other purposes on other projects they may have in the future (like a closing on the adjoiner).?ÿ They know if that causes a problem they can't sue you, but also that you can't sue them as they have a right to the copy.

Most of the time when certifications are asked for the map is filed as well.

So, I've stopped worrying about certifications.?ÿ Want your dog on there too? Sure why not, but it's still only going to be the contract negotiated up front.?ÿ And no matter how many people are listed, the information is still only as good as the professional providing it and we're all just giving an opinion that could be proved wrong.?ÿ

My advise to consumers, attorneys, lenders, title companies is pick your surveyor with care, base on education and experience,?ÿand forget about certifications.?ÿ

My opening paragraph states the date of completion and the party requesting the survey. ?ÿThat's it so far as naming who better be paying the bill, sooooooooon. ?ÿExcept for ALTA's, of course.