Hello all, I am looking for some insight, if anyone cares to chip in.
For reference, I am an LSIT, taking classes online from UMaine working toward a bachelor's degree(will be 5 more yrs at this rate). Local union surveyor with 6 years field experience. Very high wages, excellent health care coverage. Varying hours (economy has been bad - under 2000 hours past few years) for a small 1-crew shop, where I split time as chief/chainman. Our field work is varied (mapping, construction, etc) but there's zero structure or mentorship. My place in the company is secure as long as I want it.
I have an opportunity for a county job. Depending on negotiation, it will be $7-$14/hour pay cut, maybe worse. PLus the cost of health coverage, but I'm not sure how much this will be. I don't know much about the retirement, but I am vested in my pension with the union.
My thinking is that taking the county job will help my long-term professional growth. I will be part of the front and back end of surveying, not just the middle (field work). It's 50/50 office/field.
The field work is more varied also; getting into equipment and processes that my little company would never do. So my horizons would expand, at least I think..
Plus, it's pretty much guaranteed 2080 hours. That's huge, and could balance the pay cut.
Here's the kicker, I don't know if I can stay in state another 5 years. I want to raise my kid back in my home state where all my family is, and where things are, what I consider "normal" or wholesome.
Does this sound to you like a worthwhile risk? I'm wondering if I should bide my time, ride the potential for an economic recovery, Keep the amazing healthcare situation for my wife and son (free PPO), or venture out for long-term growth, of which I am only guessing at.
Native,
These scenarios involve more than you can share in a few posts, but they can give you perspectives to add to your decision matrix.
Having low hours gives you time for family and your education. You won't get a second chance to be present as your kids grow. I am also seeing the bachelor's pay big dividends, especially for multistate licensees. You will need better experience eventually, but the college is building a base you won't get in most jobs.
I took a state job in 2018. It was financially brutal. I lost almost 1k per week from takehome. Three years later I was in debt to my eyeballs, my retirement was empty, and my pay was 60% of average (encouraged yet?).
The Governor eliminated my position and I returned to the private sector. The experience I gained with the State set me up with a great path to retire in four years. All luck, no smarts on that one.
As a County employee you should be insulated from the uncertainty state or federal employees are about to endure. I have no idea where you are looking or what the job is. I suggest you look close at the political situation before you make a jump. The move to reduce government is strong and the last guy in the door is a frequent target.
Your comment about 'not making five years' caught my eye as well. Most County plans won't vest until five years of service. You won't have anything in that bucket other than your contributions if you leave early. That's not a great move in your early years of service.
I hope you get enough responses to make the decision difficult. In my experience easy decisions mean I missed something...
Best of luck, Tom
I have an opportunity for a county job. Depending on negotiation, it will be $7-$14/hour pay cut, maybe worse. Plus the cost of health coverage, but I'm not sure how much this will be. I don't know much about the retirement, but I am vested in my pension with the union.
Plus, it's pretty much guaranteed 2080 hours. That's huge, and could balance the pay cut.
Does your union provide 100 percent covered insurance premiums for you and your family?
I would double check the numbers on the quoted part of your post. Will the extra ±80 hours in a year actually cover the wage cut as well as the potential insurance costs increase? Hopefully someone paying a portion of a three person family's insurance can chime in, but I would expect 4 to 6 months of employee portion of the premium would eat up the extra 80 hours of pay you would be getting. Then you would be losing money on the career change for the rest of the year.
Also keep in mind that each year you continue in the union you will build in an additional percent of final salary as your retirement benefit. Often that builds at a couple of percent per year. So you would add on another ±10% to your union retirement. How would that compare with what you might build up at the county position in the same five years (especially keeping in mind @thebionicman point about time to get vested in the county retirement)?
Of course money is not the most important thing in life, but it is a heck of a motivator in decision making.
It is a tough choice so I wish you the best in your decision.
Thanks for the insight,
Yes my union covers 100% premiums for the 3 of us, covering 90% of health care costs on top.
My union pension currently is based on credits. 1000 hours = 1 credit = $62 more a month on retirement.
Im only projected to work 1750 hours this year. It's been slow and I had to take time off here and there for various things.
Even so, at my current wage, 1750 hours = 2080 hours at the county and that projected hourly. So free time is a huge upside with my current position.
I dont think I will be able to do 5 years with the county to become vested. So I'll likely lose out on that. But, Im not sure. I could easily do 5 years inthe blink of an eye while my plans fall to the wayside. That's how life goes.
tough decision, and my gut is telling me to hold onto my current position, bide my time, and plan a move in the next few years. But I feel like im missing something huge here.
Plus, it's pretty much guaranteed 2080 hours. That's huge, and could balance the pay cut.
The benefits at a gov't job are, generally, going to be pretty good. Most often better that anything the private side can offer. This was a big key when I took a city job 4 years ago after 30+ years in the private sector. I also got 4 weeks per year vacation and 10 holiday days (now 11) per year. Next year I go to 5 weeks per. There is a big focus on "quality of life". The pace of work is much more relaxed. I'm not saying that we don't work and work hard, but the focus is on shepherding things in the long term rather than on churning out product in the least possible time.
There is a good chance that you can negotiate closing that hourly pay gap. Those things are not cast in stone. Even if you can't, ask about the prospects for moving up in class.
I'm thinking that a county job would be a good place to be while you work on your degree, while the downside, it appears to me, is manageable.
Two things come to mind. If you’re aiming to get licensed, most union work is construction and won’t give you much by way of responsible charge towards licensure. Also limits your experience that could restrict the kind of work available to you later. Generally by the time you’re 55, most people are transitioning from the field to office. Helps a lot if you have those office skills locked down.
Second thing is not having all your retirement eggs in one basket. This relates to my current situation. I worked for government early on, had an opportunity to learn skills I wouldn’t get elsewhere. I took those skills to the private sector and made twice the money I’d made in government, but at a price. Fast forward I’m back in government for the remaining years of my career, lower stress but less money. Here’s the upside. My government pension will now be calculated now not based on what I made 20 years ago, but what I’m making now, effectively doubling the pension I’ll receive in retirement. You need to factor in not just the immediate pros and cons, but long term as well.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Stay on your current plan. Get all you can in that retirement fund for as long as you are generally content with what you are doing day to day. I would try to pick up some work with surveyors in your area that are doing boundary work. Not a ton of work, but, enough to supplement the hours you tend to be short where you are. That will provide far more experience and mentors to signoff on your eventual application for licensure.
At any given County Commission meeting, the Commissioners can decide to do away with any certain position they desire. Boom, you are gone that day and they will walk you out of the building with only a box of personal items you have in your work area as if you are a criminal. I have witnessed this three times. One fellow had been there for 17 years.
Your statement about a downturn in business doesn't ring true to anything I know about the demand for surveyors. My vote would be to find a smaller firm that needs an eager person to help out and verify that you will receive the mentorship that you want and deserve. There's got to be lots of firms looking for good help.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
there's zero structure or mentorship.
Who is going to sign off on your experience forms? In other words, staying in your current position may be fatal to getting licensed.
... the Commissioners can decide to do away with any certain position they desire.
This is equally true of any private side position. And perhaps more likely.
It seems that the potential for career growth and your family goals fit nicely together. That's the route I'd be pursuing.
I appreciate any and all insight.
I've only had maybe 2-3 days to think about it, even then only a few hours uninterrupted.. but my main takeaway is: I'll be fine either way. It's not a career ending situation, and I'm grateful to even be selected amongst all applicants.
The biggest obstacle is this: I really can't see myself spending more than 3 years in this state. I don't know what's best for my family, but the quality of life is so much different from how I grew up.
I grew up dirt-road lower class, but with a wholesome background. Good family. We moved to a small city, but I've always been upper lower class or maybe lower middle class at one point. I'd trade it any day for what we live in now.
A teacher and a surveyor with a 14 months old live in a tiny apartment, where we can't even safely take a walk around the block. We can't afford a house, and moving would cost another $2k/month. We just can't stand it. So I don't see us staying here for the 5 years it takes to be vested. That said, what does it matter if I don't earn $120 more/month on my current pension? I'm planning to leave anyway. So, the experience gained might be worth the flimsy pension loss.
Also, for the record, I don't believe this union pension will be here in 22 years when I go to "retire". I'm not banking on anything except my ability to stay my personal course, become licensed wherever I live, and make the best of my situation for my family.
I am still completely torn on the decision. But I know I'll be alright either way.
Also, for the record, I don't believe this union pension will be here in 22 years when I go to "retire".
Amen. Union pensions can evaporate if industry conditions change dramatically, or if the pension is mismanaged (corruptly or otherwise). Local government pensions are, in CA at least, protected by the state.
Im only projected to work 1750 hours this year.
Wow, with that few hours, I'll retract my suggestion that health insurance might eat up the difference in a few months.
If you decide to switch to the county but don't stay long enough to get vested in that retirement, you would get back what you have contributed and roll it over into an IRA. You would lose the matching amount.
Clearly, based on your comments, you are in California and either a member of IUOE Local 3 or Local 12. Mostly likely, Local 12.
I recommend looking beyond the future of your career today and looking at the future of land surveying.
As an unlicensed field exclusive land surveying technician, what exactly do you foresee yourself doing in the future?
Construction Staking
In California, we have contractors self-performing large swaths of work. For example, the recent $2.16B OC405 project was self-performed with no land surveying firms after the initial project kickoff. The contractor has stated “they will never hire land surveyors again”. Their competitors, in order to be competitive, have moved to cut land surveying out of their construction bids.
Additionally, more importantly, the Carpenters’ and Laborers’ unions have included “layout” work using “land surveying equipment” in their work descriptions. This means these two unions are allowed to do the “land surveying” work rather than Local 12. In contrast, what do you think would happen if a laborer or carpenter jumped on a Caterpillar 657? It wouldn’t happen, ever. Surrendering work to another union – weakening your IUOE pension - is sure to make Harry Bridges roll over in his grave.
Suffice to say there will be less and less construction staking. More squirrels than nuts.
If you are curious as to where the field surveyor will be in a recession, watch the Ten Minute Surveyor video on YouTube, episode 26. There is an analysis of more than fifty years of union hours through four or five recessions. Read the comments for additional information.
Topography
Will you be performing topography work? Nope. Drones, with RTK and LiDAR, game over. The land surveyors cannot capture this market. The North Carolina notwithstanding. It takes 20 minutes to collect two days of conventional topography. Hardly a fulltime job.
Boundary
Will you be performing boundary work? Nope. Are you performing boundary now? Nope.
Bottom line, a lot of words to say there will be little or nothing for you to do as an unlicensed field only union member in the coming years. Have no illusions, your position is behind the boss's son, the person that has been there 20 years and the neighbor's kid.
The Future
The future is always uncertain, but the best chance of survival in the profession is to be a licensed land surveyor. Licensed land surveyors will likely function similar to an inspector or resident engineer on large construction projects by providing guidance to the other self-performing trades, specification compliance, certifications, etc. Land surveyors will no longer make their living based on crew hours.
Public Agency or Private Surveying
In the near future, public works are funded under the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act and additionally, the Inflation Reduction Act. If your firm is not in the public works arena now, they will not be competitive under the QBS process.
Based on your background provided and my familiarity with Local 12, you would be well advised to take a withdrawal, go to work at a public agency with the focus on learning the skills needed to sit for a license – skills that will not be available through your current employment. Maintain your dues, stay in good standing, you will have no problems getting paid well over-scale as a union field surveyor with a license.
Bottom line, do what it takes to get licensed or go the way of the dinosaur.
DWoolley
Hot tip, the Local 12 pension was $58 a credit since 2006. Adjusted for inflation this number should be $90.82. That particular pension is known as cat food diet in a trailer park in Blythe for Thanksgiving pension. Once retired, you are not eligible for any pay increases, besides, $62 isn’t much of any increase over 17 years. Next, over 30 years, at the current contribution rate, the contributions would be approximately $650k. You would have to live to nearly 90 and a widow to 95 to get your money back. Of course, if you and your widow die sooner, the balance goes back to the union trust. The defined benefit plan is good/great for someone that lacks discipline, cannot save money or has a history of drug abuse. Keep in mind, the union can cancel your retirement benefits for any "infractions", including working for a non-union firm or working as a surveyor after you have retired.
Get licensed.
@dwoolley I agree with pretty much everything you mentioned, and I appreciate the input.
Becoming licensed is my goal - hence my initiative to branch out, and me going to school while working and tending to my family. I'm running on fumes trying to better my position. I was thinking of taking the semester off and studying for the PS exam. A change of pace.
I do think the union pension is peanuts, and will be squandered anyway by the time I'm done. I'm well aware of the lack of credit increases vs wages. I get it.
My goal is self preservation long-term, and licensure is the only and best way I can think to make that happen and stay relevant in this profession.
@native1 Find me in Orange County. I may be able to help you get where you're going.
DWoolley
How close are you to ha ha BS in geomatics etc. if you have a young family look at federal jobs. NGS is hiring all the time USACE NGA etc. Nothing in life is 100%. As holy cow stated get all you can for as long as you can. Get as much in retirement while you are young. PM me sometime. I might can find you a lead on a decent position.
@olemanriver
I have a few years yet for my Bachelor's, at the current pace. I'm only able to do 1, maybe 2 classes a semester with work and family.
I appreciate you reaching out. I will say that I got a late start, and am almost 40 years old now with a year old son. So, I just wanted to put that out there, as I think some opportunities might not be relevant for me over someone who is much younger.
@native1 I am older than you. Now I left the private sector at the beginning of the year 2000. I was on track to be very successful in land surveying. I was right at 6 figures when I left and joined the USMC. I had a wife and a son. The military pay in 5 years total did not come to what I made my last year in surveying. But it cost me my first marriage. Along with 911 coming during my time. Had a daughter during my service time. I take the blame for marriage not working. Stay focused on your family don’t let the career consume you. But do what you need to do on that career and keep building your knowledge. Now fast forward from 2006 till a few years ago and here I am making another go at the private sector side. Now I did stay in the geomatics and geodetic side throughout all those other years in some form or fashion. Don’t give up just keep grinding through. If I remember correctly one of my greatest mentors told me he didn’t get his BS finished until around 40. I actually have met several people who were licensed for years before finishing the degree. Take care of your family and keep that good work ethic and you will be fine.