I'm curious about the number of surveyors that complete a boundary survey that is disputed, for any number of reasons, then steps in to mediate between the parties that were at odds with each other prior to the survey?
I had a situation a few years ago where I completed a survey for an estate where the neighbor had his shed over the line. All pins referenced by the 20 year old survey that created both parcels (2 acres each) were found & located. I knocked on the door of the encroaching neighbor, explained the survey findings, and gave him a copy of the survey with the permission of the executrix of the estate. The cordial conversation was witnessed by the executrix and her attorney and we all departed thinking the neighbor was going to move his shed and the problem was rectified. When I got back to the office, I had a complaint filed against me with our HR department for inappropriate conduct and intimidation. Needless to say, the client and her attorney were called immediately to explain to HR exactly what transpired and the attorney went to work. I followed up with the client two weeks later, the neighbor had his house on the market, his shed was moved off of the line, and I received an apology letter in the mail.
Anyone have an interesting outcome to a mediation attempt you feel like sharing?
With all boundary disputes the most importasnt aspect is to explain to both parties that it is irrelevant as to who is paying: you are there to look at facts, record physical dimensions and, if necessary give an independent view. The majority of those who have a real property dispute (excepting those who simply have a personality dispute) are generally pleased to have the problems clearly explained, even if it isn't in their favour.
I seem to be involved with a number of them lately. I avoid them as a rule, if someone comes in with an attitude that they are at odds with the neighbor and want to be confrontational I will probably pass on the job.?ÿ
That being said I'm still unable to disconnect myself from them.?ÿ
One recently was a client that built across the line onto the neighbor. I chatted on the phone with the neighbor and worked out a solution. Another was a survey over a disputed vacation of a state highway and who received the ROW. I was correct with my survey that my client acquired the entire vacation, and I was able to go through why with the adjoiner's lawyer.?ÿ
It seems that vacations are touchy subjects and title insurance companies don't understand them very well.?ÿ
The important thing I believe is to be very honest, don't hide any facts to the client or the neighbor. We are fact finders mostly, don't think that the other party or their counsel are ignorant of the situation. Sometimes an attorney will play dumb to draw you out, I wonder if they learn that in lawyer school.?ÿ
Sometimes an attorney will play dumb to draw you out, I wonder if they learn that in lawyer school.?ÿ
Not always, some of them just are....
Equal area exchanges have helped me keep people out of court numerous times.?ÿ I don't exactly enjoy boundary disputes, but I can't pass on them and then consider that my obligation to the public is anything more than meeting minimum technical standards.?ÿ I tend to wade into them because, as compared to all other surveys, they give me a chance to help my fellow Americans more.?ÿ To be clear, there's a difference between a boundary dispute that has at least a small chance of being settled or avoided and one where deep resentment has erupted into hatred.?ÿ I avoid the latter.
As others mentioned, transparency is key.?ÿ I've been told by clients that they could tell I cared, and I did, so maybe that's the major component.?ÿ I also hammer on the cost of litigation, the high likelihood that a judge will view their case as an annoyance and just split it down the middle, and that they will not have their attorney fees paid by the opposing party if they win.?ÿ If the issue is a building or utility over the line, I lean on that party to pay for the exchange.
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The last boundary dispute I was involved in turned into a cf. We were hired by landowner A to stake the property lines of 2 twenty + acre lots he had just purchased so that he could fence them and plan on where to build his home. In the process of my survey, I found that landowner B to the west of the northerly most parcel had built half her house, a 30 x 40 shop, corrals, well, and septic over the line onto landowner A's property. With permission of landowner A, I approached landowner B and explained the situation. We discussed the situation, and she seemed amiable to an acreage per acreage swap. I introduced the two landowners to each other, explained the process and cost of doing a boundary line adjustment (BLA), and then left them to figure out an agreement while I finished surveying all 3 lots.
Landowner B agreed to pay the the majority of our fee for the BLA. I proceed to draft up an equal acreage swap. Email copies to both landowners and inform them that I need a $200 check to the county for survey review fees. Red flag number one immediately pops up when landowner B says she can't right the check until the first of the month.
First of the month rolls around, she drops off a postal money order (red flag number 2). I hand her an invoice for services to date, and she asks about payment plans (red flag number 3). I inform her that we do not do installments, that no survey will be filed until ALL bills are paid in full. She says she needs to run home to get her checkbook so she can pay us (red flag number 4).
Six weeks go by, multiple phone calls and emails, with nothing but crickets from landowner B. Landowner A asks for a detailed invoice so that he can discuss things with landowner B. She gets him to agree to pay for the survey in exchange for an additional acre of ground (red flag number 5) if landowner A pays the entirety of the bill, with the exception that landowner B pays all filing fees with the county.
I proceed to modify the equal acreage swap to reflect the additional acre, set monuments, submit everything for review, receive comments back from the county, and plot a recording set for the survey. I contact landowner B for her signature and a check for filing fees to the county. She takes another few weeks to stop by and sign along with another postal money order for the filing fee.
I mail the survey to landowner A (lives out of state) for his signatures. He returns everything to me, a drop the entire packet off at the county. A week or two goes by, and the Clerk and Recorder from that county calls me to inform me that landowner B has protested her taxes, which by state law means that the survey cannot be filed until taxes on all involved properties are paid in full. In Montana, surveys are only valid for filing for 180 days from the last dated signature on the face of the survey.
Four months go by, multiple phone calls from landowner A (out of state) asking what he can do. His options are either hire an attorney (can't get blood out of a turnip) or pay landowner B's $1800 tax bill so the survey can be filed. He finally relents at the 160 day mark, pays landowner B's taxes, and the survey and associated deeds get filed.
Now our company policy is, no surveys without either being an established client or paying a retainer fee.
The original client that contacts us will be invoiced. Any shared costs between landowners will be the responsibility of the client that contracts with us for services. All contract changes are put to paper, and no work proceeds until the client has signed the contract.
tl;dr: Landowner disputes suck.
Long post- my apologies ahead of time.
In my 21 years of being licensed I??ve only had 2 projects that may fit into the ??boundary mediation? projects I can recall- ?ÿone I saw coming, and the other one I didn??t.
The project I knew would be a mediation type project involved a gorgeous 75+ acre parcel in Douglas County Colorado- client wanted to create a recorded Land Survey Plat and redefine the boundaries of the 2 parcels making up the whole. My client was the one paying for the survey of both parcels and had just built a beautiful home on his 36+ acre portion. His adjoiner was a make shift horse-farm type operation on the other 94+ acre portion. The purpose of the Land Survey plat was to do a ??land swap? which would be beneficial for both owners (my client would end up with less land, but would benefit his new house as what he took would shield his view from the other parcel once he planted a number of pine trees). My client and I walked the entire property together and he showed me where he and the neighbor agreed the land swap lines would occur, and I put in stakes as we went. My client told me up front that his neighbor was "not easy to deal with".
Send the crew out a couple of days later and the stakes are all gone, and we??re met by an armed and angry adjoiner, claiming we??re in cahoots with ??the other guy? and trying to steal his land. Had the sheriff come out and settle things down, and then I called them both together and explained the process, promised to deliver a ??preliminary? set of documents showing the existing land boundaries and the proposed land boundaries, along with copies of map-check reports showing the bearings, distances, acreages, etc. I just listened to them both, answered their questions and let them both know that just because one party was paying the bill, I didn??t have a dog in the hunt with either one of them. By law and by the nature of my license, I just recorded the facts, put them on paper and presented the finding to the both of them. It took a while but the adjoiner finally (and begrudgingly) agreed to go ahead with the deal.
The other one came out of left field. When I was doing primarily land development, I was involved in an ALTA Survey for a parcel of ground in a quarter section of land that was all raw ground. For my initial research and initial due diligence for the quarter section, I visited all of the usual suspects- County courthouse, County Road Department, CDOT (just to confirm they had no vested interest in any of the surrounding roads), ?ÿCounty Surveyor, Planning Department (to see if anything was in the works in that area) etc. We move along and prepare an ALTA Survey (can??t remember the acreage, but relatively large) and off the job goes into Engineering. Our crews are at the stage of staking the roads and utilities and we get the phone call that there??s a problem. Seems there were 3 land development projects all going on at the same time in that quarter section that all share common lines at some point, and Surveyor #3 says that I and Surveyor #2 screwed up, and we??re overlapping his development??s property with a triangular portion of land (as does Surveyor #2??s ALTA). I dig up all of my research and calcs, and head out to the site for a meeting with: my firm, my boss and my client??s legal counsel, Surveyor 2??s firm and his client??s legal counsel, Surveyor??s 3 firm and his client??s legal counsel, a rep from the Land Planning office, assorted bosses and Construction Managers, scraper operators, etc. (must have billed all told at about $25k per hour for that group). The Surveyor who raised the alarm bell proceeds to take control of the ??meeting? and point out how I and Surveyor #2 screwed up our boundaries and did not hold the easily recovered North 1/4 Corner monument that helps define the quarter section (he took great pride in spreading out 24x36 inch prints of his quarter section breakdown, monument records and opining to the crowd about the sanctity of his math being supported by the section corners he found). FYI for this story, Surveyor #2 and I both showed the quarter section monument on our original filed ALTA Surveys and indicated we didn??t hold it. Surveyor #2 and I just sat back and let him go since he wasn??t asking any questions, just orating to the crowd.
When Surveyor #3 finished, one of the Attorneys turned to Surveyor #2 and I and asked if we had any input that would clear up the issue. I volunteered to go first and along with all of the research Surveyor #3 produced, I produced a copy of an unrecorded plat that the County Surveyor had given me (and also had given to Surveyor #2 when he was doing his research) that showed a different location of the north 1/4 corner and hence a different bearing for the quarter section line. The County Surveyor had told me specifically to use this unrecorded plat in my section breakdown calculations, as he had done with Surveyor #2, and stated that ??this quarter section breakdown is what everyone has relied upon in this area for decades and the section corner monument set within the last 20 years or so at the North 1/4 corner was set erroneously?- the correct corner as identified on the unrecorded plat was about 7 or 8 feet west and about 2 feet deep- a very pretty stone that we (and Surveyor #2) had already recovered and held. Surveyor #2 then spoke and confirmed that he too recovered said stone and held it as well. A quick call by one of the Attorneys to the County Surveyor??s office confirmed that Surveyor #2 and I we were correct in the eyes of the County Surveyor.
Then the Attorneys step in and start with each other, all indicating that work stoppages are coming, dollars will start racking up that someone??s going to pay, etc. I very calmly suggested that (with my client??s approval) a simple ??land swap? of the triangular portion of land from Surveyor 3??s client to my client would solve the problem from our perspective (and not stop construction). Surveyor 2??s client suggested the same thing and everyone was in agreement that was the best way to handle this. The only client who walked away with sour grapes was Surveyor 3??s client, who now had to amend a record plat and an entire set of Engineering documents. I believe at the end of the day Surveyor??s 3 firm paid for my firm??s time (and Surveyor 2??s time) to create the land swap documents.
The point of this long story is to highlight how effective a calm head and an approach of mediation can produce the intended results. As others in this thread have pointed out, we merely report the facts and don??t have a vested interest in either party. Calm heads can prevail and a viable solution can be reached, amenable to all parties, that keeps us all out of court.
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I did a survey for neighbor A. It was a small tract but tough area and ended up surveying the neighborhood. When we finally set the main line in question I was on site with the crew and my client and neighbor B both agreed the survey I did was wrong. Once we were done staking corners and points on line the neighbors were helping each other move their stuff to their proper sides.
I'm going to do my best to stay out of this one, although a couple people on Facebook were nice enough to tell everyone that all they had to do was call me as I would straighten it all out.
Call this the case of the disappearing basketball goal.
This particular addition to the big city left out two sizeable chunks of land as the developers were saving them for their own use.?ÿ Everything is block/lot/streets/alleys, except these two chunks.?ÿ Over time they have been split into numerous smaller tract using metes and bounds descriptions.?ÿ One of the bigger end of the small tracts should match up with the south end of a certain block.?ÿ The Catholic Church owns that metes and bounds tract and Lot 10 in the supposedly adjoining block.?ÿ The owner of the supposed adjoining tract owns Lots 11,12, etc.?ÿ The problem discovered by the County Engineer of 60 years ago was that there is a strip of no man's land between the Block and the metes and bounds tract of varying width from about 7 feet to about 10 feet on the other side of the block.?ÿ The Church has claimed that strip throughout their ownership (maybe 1960 or so)
Here is the true issue.?ÿ Several years back, I don't know exactly how long, the owner of Lot 11 asked the Church for permission to install a basketball goal at the edge of the Church's parking lot for local kids to enjoy while taking advantage of the hard surface of the parking lot.?ÿ Apparently, a signed document was worked out and agreed to that the goal could stay as long as the owner's of Lot 11 took care of it.?ÿ THOSE OWNERS, not necessarily future owners.?ÿ About two days ago a Church member arrives with a cutting torch to cut it off at ground level and add some crushed rock to obliterate the base.?ÿ The current owner (not the original) of Lot 11 yelled at him that he was destroying and stealing HER property.?ÿ He, reportedly, yelled back at her to stay out of his way.?ÿ She is furious.?ÿ Facebook has lit up with friends and foe debating the issue.?ÿ She is going to sue the Church.?ÿ She called the city cops and has signed the documents to treat this as a very serious matter.
In 2003, I surveyed the Church property, which was actually an updating of the County Engineer's survey, and only set one new corner pin as all others were found in place and agreement with his work.?ÿ I'm sure the basketball goal was not there at the time.?ÿ I don't know whose property it is (WAS) on and I don't really care.?ÿ I'm not volunteering to tell anyone local of my special knowledge.
Usually, I will listen while the prospective client explains what started the dispute and why he or she is correct. At the end of that narrative they usually ask if I will survey the affected area for them to show the neighbor. My reply is "Are you prepared to be wrong?" Many times the person that commissions the survey is the one that isn't correct.. Depending on that answer, I might be persuaded. Both parties need to be open minded and willing to try and work something out. If their?ÿ mind is made up before you start, they won't see the truth when it shows itself. I don't pursue that type of work and I'm picky when asked. Plenty of times when I was younger, I took disputes that were intense enough that we asked for a deputy to be present. I'm not as young as I used to be....
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
I??ve ??mediated? a few. I put mediated in quotes because the people weren??t really at odds with each other. ?ÿThe last one was right before I retired and the guys house was about 90% over the line. ?ÿThe description didn??t even come close to the occupation. ?ÿThe owner that had the ground surrounding the house just said do what ever you need to to make the area the same. ?ÿLike someone else??s said, land exchanges of equal area fix problems.
When people are odds, it??s usually past the point I can mediate it.?ÿ