4 year degree requirement

That is not necessarily true. In NJ, the push for the degree requirement started with the full backing of the NJSPLS. The premise was that a degree would elevate revenue/pay to that of lawyers, engineers and other licensed professionals. In my opinion, that backfired and led to a shortage of licensed surveyors.

According to the microeconomics class I took in college, a shortage of licensed surveyors should result in higher fees (and pay) for those "widgets". Are the surveyors in NJ deliberately violating the laws of supply and demand?

Your class was exactly right.

From roughly 2013 to mid to late 2023, demand has far outweighed supply, even during the pandemic. With rising interest rates and increased material costs, demand has slowed. With six field crews and a full inhouse support staff, our que has had back logs that typically stretched out for at least a month, sometimes two.

The only surveyors benefiting from the supply/demand situation are those licensees amongst us being in a responsible charge position and having years of diversified experience. There are plenty of licensees out there who lack a desire to enter the office to fill leadership positions. Some people are not cut out for that and enjoy the role of running a field crew and not being confined to a four walled office. These people are not on the same pay scale of those assuming full responsibility.

I filed my application shortly before the four year degree requirement kicked in. I was licensed at the age of 28, which was almost unheard of back then. After the degree requirement kicked in, for some years I was tracking the number of surveyors licenses issued and, generally, there were less than a handful issued.

All of the people licensed pre early 1990's and became licensed qualified based on 10 years of progressive experience. They were baby boomers or born early in the next generation. We are either at, or rapidly approaching, retirement age. I could personally retire in 3 years from now, this situation could become a crisis as the number of new licensees will not keep pace with the number of licensees retiring. If what way is this protecting the public when access is restricted by the supply/demand economic issue?

Another thing to keep in mind is that most of those currently pursuing a degree are working full time, a lot of them having family responsibilities too. They are pursuing their degrees on a part time basis with the express route taking 7 years or more, on top of how long they have already been surveying. Many employers do not have a tuition reimbursement program, leading to more hardship.

The way that I see the whole situation is that this is not beneficial to the public in any way. Do I profit from it? I don't know for certain because I am compensated very well and have not felt the need to shop myself around to find out but, I also have 40 years of well rounded experience that is factored into my compensation and new degreed licensees will not have the benefit of having that under their belt.

Please read my follow up post and let me know what you think of it.

Chris,

Part of what you are saying seems to imply the degree requirement is contributing to the shortage of licensess. If that's the case the experience only States should be in better shape than degree States. They aren't. I took a deep look at this when I worked for our Board and the shortage is fairly consistent. Bottom line is, degree and shortage are two different issues.

I believe the degree requirement needs to be coupled with policies that recognize alternative education. Our Board accepts military transcripts (AARTS, JST, AFCC, etc.) and our local program has a process for transcripting experience. You can get your degree without ever stepping foot on campus. We also allow comity licensure with eight years practice and no education. There are numerous pathways. They are narrow but very doable. As Ron White says, "I've seen me do it".

My opinion is simple. We stopped making new surveyors with the one-man crew model. Until recently most markets offered crap pay (degree or not). The pay issue is improving. We are the only ones who can help with mentoring. If you want a surveyor you have to build (and pay) one.

IMO, it’s the crap pay/benefits at all levels that is the problem. That was bad enough, and then the entry level was cut off completely c.2008, and has never recovered.

I agree with some aspects of what you are saying but not others. When it comes to the one man crew model, I've been clear on that in the past in that safety is a paramount issue, and as you have said, it is of no value in "building" a surveyor without proper mentoring.

I am unaware of any experience only states, but that just means that I have not investigated the subject, military experience, I believe, in most states, is transcriptive, but I've never heard of experience being transcriptive, but again, that is something that I have not looked into.

If you think about the pay improving amongst our field people, I don't believe that is because of any particular state requirement, I believe that it is because of the current economic conditions where corporations like McDonalds are offering $18/hour to flip burgers and Amazon is paying in the area of $20/hour for pickers and packers, neither of them skilled positions. As an industry/profession, we need to meet or exceed that pay scale, not because of any professional aspect, simply to fill needed positions and offer competitive wages.

When it comes to crew size, minimizing the number of crew members lead to maximizing profit and that's not helping the situation. I take a different approach to that, with 6 crews, four are three man and two are two man. I have 2 Chiefs with the Title "Sr. Chief", both of them extremely seasoned and we rotate crew members through them for mentoring and educational purposes.

The bottom line is that the degree requirement needs to go, and as you have pointed out, alternate methods being offered nationally. There also needs to be a national standardization in the whole approach. I can sit for the exam in FLA based on the year that I was licensed and without a degree, the same is true in PA but PA requires you to know their drainage design methods that differ from all of their surrounding states. Let's leave drainage design to the Engineers, that's not our function.

The education model going forward will help, there isn't the same path with mentoring there was. One man crews can't mentor anyone. It's a different world.

2008 was the perfect economic storm and is yet another reason that our profession lost a lot of people to unemployment and many companies did not survive the storm. I was a victim of that storm and lost my job but was fortunate to have had the foresight to have kept an updated client contact list. Keeping that list was my saving grace as it provided me with enough work to start my own small shop and pull talent that I had worked with in the past off of unemployment. That worked for four years, the business grew to the point that, four years later, I was burned out, things were rolling again and I sold my business for a profit and kept my equipment.

That era did not create crappy benefits and the one man crew. Mostly, cautious business decisions did that as those who survived the storm were strapped for cash and RTK and robots enabled the companies looking to maximize profits to go to one man crews. In my mind, those were, and continue to be, flawed business decisions with the approach being instant gratification from profit over the better good of the profession.

In the 2008 era, this whole "livable wage" nonsense did not exist, McDonalds was not paying anywhere near $18/hour to flip burgers. Flash forward to today, a kid that just graduated HS and walks in my door wants me to pay him $25/hour with absolutely no experience.

I am forced to pay a new hire $20/hour minimum, after 90 days they get health insurance, 75% paid, holidays paid, accrued personal/sick and vacation time and the ability to participate in our $401K program with matching funds. That's what it takes to attract and retain people and I wouldn't at all call the benefits crappy.

2008 was the perfect economic storm and is yet another reason that our profession lost a lot of people to unemployment and many companies did not survive the storm.

Yep, I had a surveying company and a web design company running side by side at that time. I miss surveying immensely, but the web design company took off like a rocket and I had no reason to go back to surveying.

Benefits and pay vary by area and state, I would think greatly. In Mississippi, it’s terrible and the best shot you have at decent pay is a supervisor position or self employment. Senior positions are very few and far between. I absolutely do not think the degree requirement helps long term moving forward. If someone just works for a company on a one man crew and is not mentored, I don’t think there is any way they pass national and state exams. Also, who is going to sign off on their experience? Most states require multiple licensees for references when they apply. In the engineering field, they can get a license via comity in many states and just pay a fee. In surveying, it’s not nearly that easy. I understand taking state specific examinations due to different requirements, procedures, and standards varying between states, but any experienced licensee in any state along with experience should be able to take a state specific exam and obtain a license in another state. For example, the state of Tennessee requires a licensed surveyor in another state to submit 2 plats that meet their standards and passing a state specific exam. The plats are required to be stamped, so you can submit plats from the state you are licensed in. They also want the plats modified to meet their standards and marked “for demonstration purposes”. Why does and experienced licensee need to submit plats when they obviously are able to produce them in their home state? In Mississippi, I had to submit plats to obtain a license already? After going through that process and having 14 years post licensure, should a profession not be able to bypass that step? I have a friend that got his TN license 5 years ago and didn’t have to submit plats, so that had been changed in recent years. It’s absolutely ridiculous that other states don’t respect licensees from other states, in many cases. Being an experienced licensee should mean a lot when seeking a license in another state. I will say kudos to TN for having a pathway without a 4 year degree, though. That’s better than other adjoining states.

Mr. Taylor,

I spent a few years reviewing applications. I can say with certainty there are people applying for comity here that should not practice anywhere. We asked for work samples, which I reviewed in light of the differences in Statutes. Most were decent work and demonstrated at least minimum competence. Some showed deficiencies warranting discussion or an interview. A small but significant minority revealed nothing short of gross incompetence. We were challenged to find a reasonable and legitimate way to help the applicant get where they needed to be or recommend denial.

It is absolutely reasonable to ask an applicant to provide samples of work if they are asking for a license based on that work. This is especially true as legislatures across the country are eliminating or reducing state exams. The Boards are tasked with protecting the public from us. They have to determine minimum competence using an ever shrinking tool box.

We have people practicing here as well that should not be anywhere. I guess it’s easy to see that step unnecessary when you practice in a manner to meet standards. I think a lot of my license and the work that I provide, but there are those who do not. I am glad they have a path for 2 year guys with experience and licensure. I can see where you would get a large fluctuation in quality of work. I have seen some work that was very questionable, at best.

What states are eliminating exams or requirements to become licensed? All of our adjoining states are becoming more stringent. I haven’t seen the opposite at all.

Nevada just dropped their test. Idaho universal licensure act prohibits a state law exam. Deregulation is gaining steam....

We are all in the business of training our replacement (whether we admit it or not). That training can come in many forms: self-guided, one-on-one, seminars, trade schools, apprenticeships, mentoring, online, dealer support, formal education and any combination of these. The purpose of training is employee development, sometimes called workforce development. When employees learn new things, our organizations can attempt new things with lower risk.

Training is also a risk management tool. Why do HR offices push sexual harassment training? To reduce the company's risk of sexual harassment actually occurring. Training, in all its forms, can help us prevent costly blunders.

At a fundamental level, states with higher education requirements have specified a distinct workforce development path toward licensure. The education is no guarantee of licensure; it is the first gate through which the future licensee must pass. Testing is the final gatekeeper for licensure. Since our states can make their own rules (and take differing paths), we have a patchwork of licensing laws.

In the 4-year degree states, it took one generation of surveyors to enact the education laws and at least another generation to begin implementing those laws. In my state, the planning process began in the late 1970s, and the law was enacted in 1998. Now in 2024, it appears (to me) that the educational opportunities have matured in my state - a generation later. Some states are farther ahead of mine, and others are behind mine in the transition. Major cultural changes like licensee education requirements take multiple decades to develop. During these transitions, it's common for many to feel left behind, excluded, or devalued.

I believe the intent of higher education requirements is to improve our profession and ultimately our service to the public. Just as physical strength training demands sacrifice, discipline, and clear vision of the goal, so too do our workforce development efforts demand change toward an improved future. We don't all agree on the method, or for that matter, what the desired goal looks like. However, we all know we must adapt to survive.

I offer all this not as a direct answer to the original poster’s questions but hopefully as helpful elements of a complex topic. It’s tempting to look at education requirements as either good or bad with no in-between positions. The sting of rejection by other states’ rules certainly doesn’t make this any easier. A longer range view toward the benefits to be reaped by our successors helps me creep back from the ledge and accept the difficulty of the transition.

Chris mentioned above about how most surveyors are going back to school part time after they've begun work and maybe even started a family. I wonder what the percentage is of actual traditional students coming out of high school and going straight to college for surveying. I considered myself semi-traditional since I went to college after high school, graduated with an AS in Sports Medicine but turned right around (long story) and went right back to the same school and graduated again with an AS in Surveying. I remember my class being made up of all traditional students except we had one State Trooper, another semi-traditional and one guy doing what Chris described above. This was 97-99. The game has changed a lot since then with the popularity of online schooling. When I moved to St. Louis upon graduation, I found out that I was a bit of a unicorn for the area. Almost all local surveyors looking to get licensed, were having to take 12 hours of night courses at a local community college. At that time, Missouri had 3 options: 4 year degree (12 survey hours), 2 year degree (12 survey hours) + experience, or 20 years experience with 12 survey hours. There wasn't a traditional pathway unless you went out of state. I knew of a few dual PELS that came out of SIU-Carbondale, which isn't too far, but it's now defunct. SIU-Edwardsville has just started up a fantastic survey program which is commutable for STL folks. Linn State Tech has emerged with a program but it's not a viable option for the non-traditional living in STL. I can't recall the last time I met a traditional college graduate fresh out of a land surveying school.

The degree 4-yr requirement was promoted heavily by those offering such degrees and made persuasive by a two-pronged campaign, 1) create the fear that without one, a person could not be recognized as a professional, and 2) the promise that having a 4-year degree will increase compensation.

The result is that frequently, a person licensed by degree and a little experience is ready to learn to learn about being a surveyor.

If the promotion had been thought out from the point of view of the future of surveying, the requirement would have been a master's degree plus a residency under a licensed mentor authorized to declare the novice ready to practice.

The degree trash talking has already become tiresome. What the profession really needs is for these fist-shaking dinosaurs to retire and go away.

What state are you in. I am very interested in the aspect of them accepting military experience. This is something that I have not seen in every state. As a matter of fact I heard from a friend recently that was given no credit period for his time surveying in the military. He was a CB. I told him that he should have taken his military experience and applied it towards a PE tract because he got some very good education and experience in design and such. I know personally my geodetic background has helped me tremendously in todays time of gps state plane etc. now I don’t believe for 1 second that alone qualifies me to be licensed. However I do believe it should count some towards credit. The big issue is the wording of qualifies as time under a LS. That means technically all the geodetic education and work was for nothing in regards to getting licensed in states that do not recognize it. Because it was not under the direct supervision of a licensed surveyor.