Sergeant Schultz, post: 340402, member: 315 wrote: I've had an attorney pare down my descriptions, eliminating calls to senior abutters w/ their deed recording info., because the description was too "verbose".
"Bearings & distances, man, that's all I need....."
In the old days (meaning before Xerox Corporation arrived in Central Texas), it was common for attorneys to have their secretaries retype a metes and bounds description in the body of a conveyance. These days, it is pretty much standard practice to simply attach what the surveyor has produced as an exhibit that the instrument references.
Naturally, the low-skill folks who actually do the work of assembling the instruments for closing have been known to neglect to attach the exhibit. Stuff happens.
In the old days in Central Texas (meaning: in the era before Xerox Corporation) it was common for attorneys to have their secretaries retype metes and bounds descriptions in the body of a conveyance. These days, it is pretty much standard practice to simply attach what the surveyor has produced as an exhibit that the instrument references.
Naturally, the low-skill folks who actually do the work of assembling the instruments for closing have been known to neglect to actually attach the exhibit.
Kent-
Nothing against your ability to create prose a la cadastre .......................
In about 1960ish David W. Lambden OLS 'invented' the Reference Plan which is similar to your plan above except it has the word "PART" within each heavily outlined particular portion of land that is under the cadastral survey.
Survey Plans and Their Uses | AOLS gives an outline of the Reference Plan that is deposited in the Provincial Land Registry Office for that area.
The Reference Plan shows all the boundary information.
This is the answer to "a picture is worth a thousand words" for simplicity sake and the Great Unwashed can see what their various limits are without translating them through verbiage.
The effect being that the written description has been eliminated as far as creating a new 'description' of land.
Parcel interest conveyancing is so much simpler by referring to "PART 1 and PART 3 on Deposited Plan 61R-12345" rather than a festoon of paragraphs.
Cheers,
Derek
Kent McMillan, post: 340405, member: 3 wrote: ......These days, it is pretty much standard practice to simply attach what the surveyor has produced as an exhibit that the instrument references.
Naturally, the low-skill folks who actually do the work of assembling the instruments for closing have been known to neglect to attach the exhibit. Stuff happens.
I always provide descriptions as a *.doc file for a Schedule "A", but he stripped out the abutters to save the recording fee for one page.
Just came across a boundary agreement that defined the to-be-agreed-upon-boundary as the same as was shown on an unspecified map "to be attached hereto and made a part hereof". No map attached, no description, nada.
I always provide descriptions as a *.doc file for a Schedule "A", but he stripped out the abutters to save the recording fee for one page.
Oh, to save one page? That is just idiocy. There is no known cure for that.
I always enjoy seeing how other people do things. Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome. I'm interested in seeing how surveyors in other jurisdictions write metes and bounds descriptions to embrace modern practice. I know that the metadata tends to be more meta than data, but am curious how the history of title questions that the boundary determination reflects are dealt with any more efficiently than just giving a running narrative as the tract boundary is traversed.
Kent McMillan, post: 340199, member: 3 wrote: I suppose that if land surveyors can't write good metes and bounds descriptions, a map or plat would be a fairly good work-around. The GIS folks probably like it quite a bit. :>
In my world the Map comes first (after field notes and calcs). With a decent map your type of verbose Text rendition can be created: with only the Map data... but some maps are deficient.
Yup, Texas is way different.
whenever I receive a description like that the first thing I do is make a sketch of it so I can visualize whet it is trying to describe, but that is me... I like maps
whenever I receive a description like that the first thing I do is make a sketch of it so I can visualize what it is trying to describe, but that is me... I like maps
The beauty of combining a coordinate list with a metes and bounds description is you can digitize the list by OCR scanning, plot points, and then connect them as you read the description, ending up with a figure ready to go find on the ground if geodetic coordinates are involved.
If the description is well written, it takes you through the logic of the boundary determination as you go through it. In my experience, maps tend to be more disjointed in that respect as you have to hunt through the pieces in the form of line tables for prior record measurements and corner notes to see what connects some object recovered with the corner as originally established.
My goal is to have a property description that describes what is shown on the plat. Almost all the information expressed on the plat is written into the description because it frequently happens where I practice that only the description gets attached to the deed and is recorded.
paden cash, post: 340355, member: 20 wrote: Oh, HELL YEAH. This is Oklahoma, altering descriptions that are too lengthy (or confusing for their little pea-brains) is standard procedure. I finally finished an ALTA a few weeks ago where I kept waiting for a description and a title commitment. The idiot at the title company told me they were waiting for the survey , because they always use the survey to write the description.
Title research? They don't need no stinkin' research....
Probably the only State in the Union that a convicted felon can be freed from prison on one day and be a Notary Public the next. And I think the particularly heinous and morally irreprehensible criminals seek out the title industry here. The "real estate" industry has a thick lobbyist presence down at the Capitol. Not only CAN a title clerk change anything they want, I've had them call me up and want to argue about things they know absolutely nothing about. They will stick anything on a document that pleases them.
Any one here ever consider copyrighting descriptions to keep them from being altered?
Anyone here think that they are automatically copyrighted upon creation?
I seem to get a lot of title reports that read North 45 degrees 15' 27" West. I asked about this once and the title officer that provided the report said that it is "too hard to type the degree symbol on the computer"...
I seem to be able to do it with minimal effort. I guess my computer is just more advanced than the ones that the title companies around here use.
Kent McMillan, post: 340510, member: 3 wrote: If the description is well written, it takes you through the logic of the boundary determination as you go through it. In my experience, maps tend to be more disjointed in that respect as you have to hunt through the pieces in the form of line tables for prior record measurements and corner notes to see what connects some object recovered with the corner as originally established.
I absolutely agree with this sentiment. Having a well-written description provides a narrative to show how the boundary determination was done. I have done a few boundary surveys recently where I realized that my methodology was probably not readily apparent from just having courses shown on the map. So I took the time to write up a step-by-step description of the process I went through to recreate the description of the land shown on the vesting deed.
This has met with great success with the county surveyors reviewing my maps. And I think it is also a valuable thing to do for future surveyors that may follow my maps.
Kent McMillan, post: 340510, member: 3 wrote: The beauty of combining a coordinate list with a metes and bounds description is you can digitize the list by OCR scanning, plot points, and then connect them as you read the description, ending up with a figure ready to go find on the ground if geodetic coordinates are involved.
If the description is well written, it takes you through the logic of the boundary determination as you go through it. In my experience, maps tend to be more disjointed in that respect as you have to hunt through the pieces in the form of line tables for prior record measurements and corner notes to see what connects some object recovered with the corner as originally established.
Line tables suck, it is a button pushers solution.
I was born with maps, they are apparently quite different over here. Coordinates are cool, but only if you include adequate meta data.
Clients, land owners, and other consumers like maps. Few can understand a description (even the "professionals"). I feel that a description is lacking if some sort of map/sketch is not included as a part of the entire document.
I do realize you have much different history and traditions. My Western US is also different than Baja... over here we have a much more extensive recording/registration set of documents for public record... but Maps are always included. 😉
Jim in AZ, post: 340512, member: 249 wrote: ..Anyone here think that they are automatically copyrighted upon creation?
I'm gonna bet that any descriptions created by a surveyor falls into what is considered "work for hire", and ultimately belongs to the client, not the surveyor. Although in the last few years the "work for hire" concept has come under some judicial pressures. Some "employees or agents" of the person 'hiring' have been able to retain copyrights on the work they ultimately created while an employee or agent. It is a very convoluted law and the litigation can become expensive.
Back in the '70s I worked for an engineering firm that had a country club named "Oak Tree" as a client. On the first plat prepared for the development corp. a young draftsperson (a graphic arts student, working during her summer at the engineering company) drew an "oak tree" on the final mylar next to the name "Oak Tree". It became recorded. The folks liked it. Although she only worked there for a summer, the company continued to put that picture on each new plat for the development area. The development company liked it so much they started using is as a trademark. 10 years later the young lady attempted to recoup some copyrights because she had originally created the trademark (and could easily prove it). She lost.....Work for hire.
Unless you're the one that came up with the Coca-Cola "wave", you're probably out of luck...
"One way to acquire rights is by license. With a license, you do not obtain total ownership of the final work, but rather certain limited rights to use it. These limited rights can either be exclusive or nonexclusive. A license can further be defined -- or limited -- by territory, duration, or even media. As a rule, hiring parties prefer to obtain rights on "work for hire" basis (shorthand for "work made for hire"). With a work for hire, the hiring party steps into the shoes of the creator and becomes the author of the work for copyright purposes. With a work for hire, all of the attributes of copyright ownership -- including credit and control -- vest in the hiring party, not the creator.
Important! There are only two situations in which a work for hire can exist. They are: (1) a work created by an "independent contractor," and a (2) "work prepared by an employee" within the scope of her employment."
Never was the statement "a picture is worth a thousand words" more true. But in the absence of map recording it is a great alternative. I dare say the lawyers prefer the words over drawings. If I had to choose between pleasing a lawyer and pleasing a GIS technician I think I would just be glad that there wasn't a Realtor involved.
Kent, I was wondering if you got paid by the page or the corners? Or Both? 😀
Jim in AZ, post: 340512, member: 249 wrote: Any one here ever consider copyrighting descriptions to keep them from being altered?
Anyone here think that they are automatically copyrighted upon creation?
A legal description is public record. If it was copyrighted every time the property was sold they would need to get your permission to use your description.
Copyrighting is for creative works. You can't copyright facts. Even if your legal description was creative enough to qualify for a copyright anyone could use the facts you presented in any way they wanted.
foggyidea, post: 340528, member: 155 wrote: Kent, I was wondering if you got paid by the page or the corners? Or Both? 😀
I thought only architects charged by the corner.
Recently I was sent a drawing and description prepared by an unlicensed surveyor that actually had some legal verbage about it being copyrighted, now that was a hoot, lol
