GIS nazis at it again ...

I have a brilliant idea

We here at Beerleg/Surveyor Connect need to create a system much like that used by the Anti-Horse Thief Association a century or more ago. When a person reported the theft of one or more of their horses, a posse of sorts would form. They would stealthily search out the thief, usually after dark. Many times they returned with the stolen animals and left the thief hanging by his neck from some convenient high support. No fuss, no muss, nothing but results. Then everyone returned to their normal pursuits as if it had never happened.

Perhaps we need to form a similar posse, on a regional basis, to identify and appropriately re-educate/punish the offenders pointed out to us by our survey brethren. I have a couple of ropes.

You're not alone.

Although not at the scope you've described, I've had problems with getting things "approved" by the local minions. It can approach insanity.

My biggest argument is dealing with the "wishy-washy". I've changed my submittals at their whims one way. Only to have them change their mind on the next project and want it shown a different way.

The only logical argument with these folks is to press them for a standard. I've argued for them to give us a set of standards reflecting what they want and expect to see. That way it would be cut and dried as to whether something was shown correctly. Of course, the problem with that is they would have to relinquish their "whimsical" corrections and conduct themselves as logical adults.

And around here that would come close to being an impossibility...

Some of us don't allow these control freaks to get a toe hold in the first place.

I feel for you.

And I sure am proud that I don't have to deal with such nonsense.

I have a brilliant idea

Posse Comitatus

My Department started as a law enforcement agency in the 19th Century. The State Forest Rangers would patrol the country. If they spotted a forest fire they would ride to the nearest town and require all able bodied men to help fight the fire. This is called a Posse Comitatus. If any men refused to aid the Ranger (Peace Officer) they would be jailed.

First you need to understand that if they are working for the government, then know that they couldn't make it or work in the private sector. They try to express some sort of authority and control of which they have very little of their own self control. Never give up the fight.

SD

I "made it" in the private for 10 years then they laid me off.

My family likes to eat and have a roof over their heads so here I am. 🙂

I have only had one big beef with a map checker and they eventually surrendered after I wrote a letter to the County Surveyor explaining my position on the matter.

Other than that, I've had good experiences and their comments seemed logical and reasonable but maybe I'm just easy to get along with.

I am also glad that we in Mississippi do not have to deal with that.

In my humble opinion, YOU are the Professional Surveyor and your map is how you produce it. You work for your client, not them. You have your own standards and those of your State Board. The GIS department should also create their own standards (if they have the authority to do so) that would use your state standards as a basis.

My response would be: Bite me! Here it is; deal with it! You have met your standards. End of story.

oh yes ... the county engineer(surveyor) ...

This IDIOT is only the first person to review, he HAS to review it BEFORE the county engineer then reviews it(with his own odd requirements).

To make matters worse, the first reviewer appears to be ignoring things that the county engineer has told him should NOT be considered as a reason for denying the approval, before the C.E. gets his chance to deny the approval for a litiny of other things. BUT, the C.E. will not review the stuff until the reviewer has reviewed it.

Most of the stuff that is causing these to be disapproved are not in the county, or state regulations.

Rather, the C.E. claims that rules allow for how the reviewers see the maps and descriptions as to how "clear" whatever the descriptions and/or maps are portraying(?), and how "clearly", the information is understood by the reviewer ... nothing whatsoever to do with the written, B&W, properly passed and signed, physically available and supposedly concise ... REGULATIONS.

This means that NO ONE, not any one ... not the surveyor ... not the reviewer ... not the C.E., himself, knows the rules ... cause in essence, for a lot of this stuff ... THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RULES.

I don't think they even keep a list what the accept or don't accept, cause from day to day, or surveyor to surveyor ... different "things", apply.

Could you show the offending portion of the map here? Easier to see than parse your description.

Also, what has this got to do with GIS, exactly? Is it really The GIS Department to whom you must submit plans?

Our state standards here address those issues so it would be a non-issue here.

These so called plat reviewers need to know that they have standards to follow also.

Plus, you may need to work on your #£^?+'n people skills also, @#%£•?! 🙂

oh yes ... the county engineer(surveyor) ...

I know you are aware that the Ohio Board of Registration (OBOR) has previously stated, in Board Opinion 2012-05-24, that this is in violation of Ohio law and rules. I am presuming the GIS is part of the County Auditor's office and the GIS is being used as the county tax map. If that is the case then the final paragraphs of the board opinion apply directly. The opinion lists nine considerations that lead to this conclusion.

>As noted above, the practice of surveying is not restricted to the “field work” required to perform a survey or prepare a deed description. The practice of surveying includes the technical review of the work product prepared by the professional surveyor as well as the process of performing a technical review of the survey plat or deed description and directing the professional surveyor who authored the work product to make technical changes based on the review. A registered professional surveyor must supervise the review and approval of all survey plats and deed descriptions to assure compliance with minimum boundary survey and conveyance standards. In order for the professional surveyor to be considered in a supervisory position the professional surveyor must oversee all technical staff engaged in surveying activities and have direct supervisory control and responsibility for all surveying activities and decisions coming from that office.

>If the county auditor’s staff performs tasks that fall within the definition of surveying, then they must be supervised by a professional surveyor. When decisions are made and direction is given which requires the utilization of special knowledge and skills required of a professional surveyor through education, experience, and examination, then the directions and decisions must be done under the direct supervision of a registered professional surveyor.

Emphasis added, with the knowledge that your prior efforts were largely responsible for this opinion being issued. The reason for my emphasis above is that if the GIS employee is not "under the direct supervision" of a professional surveyor there is a violation. Basically surveying without a license.

I am also aware that you have been working as a drafter for another PS that may not want to stir the pot. If that is still the case remind that PS that failure to report a violation of Ohio law is aiding and abetting the unlicensed practice of surveying. Given this any professional surveyor and the County Engineer with knowledge of this is subject to disciplinary action by the OBOR. Very muddy water and as you are also aware about 30 years ago I was in a similar situation.

EDIT: Increased amount of bold text.

the only one who can put a stop to this nonsense is you....If it was me I would follow such nonsense with an email to the county, the engineer, the county attorney and my state board demanding acceptance of the licensed surveyors work and stating that they may be practicing surveying without a license.

GIS has(legally), absolutely NOTHING to do with taxmaps, or the C.E.'s duty to review surveys.

Problem is a large number of Ohio counties IGNORE the laws.

Since the Auditor gives the office space to the C.E. to keep and update the "Auditor's", tax maps, a lot of counties "understand" that the auditor is responsible for making, keeping and updating the tax maps. This has also evolved into a thinking that the county auditor does all those duties(checking of surveys and the drafting/maintenance of tax maps), required by law to be performed by the C.E. ... but, hey ... politicians are at breaking laws ... well, maybe not really "breaking laws", but coming up with wild ridiculous, incomprehensible interpretations of existing laws.

Therefore, even though, Ohio laws require the C.E. to perform the duties of tax map maintenance(updating), and the review of all deed descriptions and surveys, some counties(like Trumbull County/trouble county, claim that since the Ohio laws don't "specifically say the county auditor "cannot" do these duties, they choose to do those duties.

Hey .... In Ohio, the C.E. is required by law to be a Professional Surveyor AND engineer ... but given that, Trouble County, a few years back appointed a Professional engineer(only), as the C.E..

When the local newspaper(this ... is ... in ... print), asked if the Ohio laws require the C.E. to be both professionals, the county commissioners stated(this ... is ... in ... print), that there are no laws that say we can't make a professional engineer the C.E.(I don't have the article in front of me so I can't accurately quote the commissioners, but this too is ... in ... print)

Basically, the laws governing these piddly things MEAN NOTHING ... the laws are evidently nothing more than a "guide" to "suggest", how things "should", be done and the word "Shall", in the pertinent laws, MEAN NOTHING.

So to answer your question NO! YES! the county GIS has/has no business doing the job of the county engineer/auditor, but yes has the right to do the business of the county engineer or the auditor ... especially if they are in fact doing/not doing the job of the county engineer or auditor ... unless not ... but I can't be sure of that ...

Maybe this is a question that should be asked of the county dog-catcher or the guy who sweeps the floors in the courthouse, if they can't answer it, then I suppose the nearest McDonald's employee might know ...

In other words, when the system is set up to ignore the written laws ... and to "reward" politicians who ignore the laws ... or worse yet to punish a politician who "wants", to follow the written law, then what?

You think I have money to blow out my arse to see if I can get a mandamus from another anal-thinking politician?

I've made my formal complaint years ago to the state BOR, but all they did was "eventually", send a piece of carrap "white paper"(wipe paper), telling ALL the C.E. and county auditors how things ... according to "law" are "supposed" to be done ... they even emphesized(sp), the proverbial "shall" aspect of the law, but then said they would not get "involved" with the ways the counties choose to do things.

So this "wipe paper", sent to a bunch of politicians who seem to loo for what laws "don't say", and otherwise have an understanding that "opinions are like toilet paper ... good to wipe one's"... arse ... really didn't mean a &#@$&*$# thing ... and my "particular" complaint was never "particulary", or "specifically", addressed ... and NOBODY seems to care.

This is why there's such a disconnected patchwork of regulations and inconsistent enforcements.

I cannot do anything about this ... not now.

My license has been lapsed for two years now(not long enough) ... on purpose.

My ONLY involvement now is helping a friend to make maps since his C.E.(the one this posting is about), has disallowed acceptance of "hand-drawn" maps(another use of "un-written laws/regulations), ... effectively putting this 64(?) year-old, who still works a piece of COGO software I wrote back in 1982, has no email, never gets on the internet, doesn't have a printer and is barely able to do much more than turn a computer on ...

If not for helping this guy, I'd be on my boat ... full time ... sipping tea, walking beaches at 5 am watching for the sun, enjoying the sunsets and enjoying my partly health-forced retirement. Maybe I wouldn't have had my last Heart Attack(a couple weeks ago), if it weren't for this little involvement that I have.

My retirement was meant to get away from all this carapp ... but to help a friend ...

Oh ... as far as fighting this system ... I fought it for about 10 years(since about 1995), both from the inside(C.E.'s office) and the outside(private practice).

I understand..not directed at you, enjoy your retirement...it seems we have met the enemy and he is ourselves.....we have allowed this and until we stop, it wont get any better.

My question would be what gives him the legitimate authority to reject any document? Why should you have to please him at all if he's not enforcing any laws or codes?

I am having the same struggle with a "county surveyor" in a state where no other county has an appointed surveyor that I'm aware of. This guy has his own personal things he likes to see, which aren't written down anywhere. You have to just submit plats and see what he says. To make it worse, he lectures me with his "3 years" of experience in this state and says it's the way it's done all over the state. Never mind the fact that I've been doing plats in counties all over the state for almost 20 years, none of which have requirements he claims are statewide.

Anyway, his name appears nowhere on the plat (he is reviewing on behalf of the county highway department) and the highway department doesn't sign the plat either. Why should I have to do anything he says? I do what the actual signors say (recorder, auditor, etc.) These things are at odds with the instructions the county surveyor gave me. When I informed him (co. surveyor) of this fact, he was FURIOUS! He demanded to know which recorder office employee told me to do things contrary to his way and I haven't heard from him in weeks. Because of him, the plat has taken over 2 months to review (not meetings, just review among county departments).

Again, why do these people have any say on what the plat should be when they have nothing codified, or even written down? They don't sign the plat anywhere, and the standards exist only in their heads, change from month to month, and conflict with other departments who actually SIGN the plat! I'm glad to see I'm not alone here. At least I have 51 other counties that aren't such a pain in the rear to work in.

I don't get it. Why is the GIS Department reviewing record maps *prior* to recordation or filing? Around here the only interactions occur between the County Surveyor's Office and the LS during the process. If hydrology, etc., wants to chime in, they forward their comments to the County Surveyor who deals with you. It's clear in the Statutes and local ordinances who has the authority to review maps, and the GIS Department is *not* mentioned. What's next, your map gets passed around the secretarial pool for comment concerning "cuteness"?

By reading all your posts on this subject, it appears that this guy feels that he has been given some actual power by his boss to impose these requirements on you and maybe others.

I would write a letter to his boss with a copy of the drawing explaining your dilemma.

The boss may still refuse. At least you have made sure he is aware of his minions attitude and is given a choice.

Then you can send it up the hill and to BOR.

I've been subjected to personal attacks by IDIOTS before and they don't realize their erroneous ways nor do they care.

Tell others that you know and let the word get around with everyone that has to do deal with that office and get a quorum going just like the discussion here.

Word on the streets gets noticed by these office minions.

good luck

oh yes ... the county engineer(surveyor) ...

Thanks Dallas

You know ... the BOR never sent me, or even told me about this wipe-paper ... I found out about by accident.

I never liked this rather toothless opinion. Although it states the pertinent laws regarding the County Engineers duties, per law. I wish it had included, or considered AG opinions 94-034, 2008-012 and/or 94-026, along with the issue of compatability of positions to perform(or not perform), certain duties.

AG94-034 is an opinion regarding county planning commissions contains the verbiage, "A planning planning commission is established pursuant to statute and has only those powers and duties given by statute."
AG2008-012 is an opinion regarding the setting of compensation of county employees. Again regarding this issue it is stated, "we begin with the well-settled principle that a board of county commissioners is a creature of statute with only those powers and duties conferred by the General Assembly."
AG94-026 is an opinion regarding county engineer's duty to perform surveys as directed by R.C. 315.18, and within states, under County Engineer's Duties, "As a creature of statute, the county engineer has those powers and duties assigned to that position by the General Assembly."

An AG's document titled "Compatability Opinions Index", some time in or after 2010 , contains a list of Compatibility of Public Offices or Positions(Revised 1/5/2010). The county engineer's position, or the county surveyor's position does not appear to be compatible with the position of county auditor. Likewise, the county auditor's position does not appear to be compatible with the county engineer's position.

The above four documents appear to indicate that certain jobs can only be performed by certain officials. That is various officials cannot trade off mandated jobs. I would have been nice for the BOR to indicate that the duties of the C.E. do not appear to be compatable with the duties of the C.A..

Regarding tax maps, a surveyors understand maps and descriptions of property.

No doubt the County Engineer is both a surveyor and an engineer, because at least one of his duties, is the duty of a surveyor in that he reviews survey maps and descriptions, to accurately map the correct acreages for the county auditor to tax. No one wants the person making the maps to also be the person collecting the tax and I can understand why the two positions would not be compatible.

The reverse, no doubt holds true that the person who taxes land, shouldn't be the person who reviews survey maps and descriptions to accurately map the correct acreage for taxation. Either case seems like a conflict and against all premise of checks and balances.

I'm bothered that the BOR, did not address, more firmly, the issue of the county auditor performing the duties of the county engineer, or the lack of the county engineer not to perform his/her duties ... not necessarily act, but to at the least, address the issue.

My original complaint, indicated that a copy of the BOR's opinion to the Tuscarawas County Engineer of March 17, 2009, was given, by the Trumbull County Engineer, to the Trumbull County Auditor and an assistant prosecutor. This letter was presented because the then county engineer felt it was his legal duty to perform those mandated duties reflected in law and also reflected in our own county regulations.

Basically, as the county engineer told me, he was told by the auditor, you will never take over the tax map department and will not be able to perform these duties and to "bring it on". I will also add, that the tenure of that particular county engineer became in doubt, not long after.

I understand the BOR not wanting to flex their muscle more than they feel comfortable with, but in reality, the complaint was the county engineer wasn't performing his/her duty and the county auditor was performing another official's duties illegally. The BOR played this safe, when they could've been a little more proactive ... progressive and aggressive using record opinions ... without making a more sweeping opinion.

As it is/was, the BOR basically stated that as far as they were concerned all that was needed was for a professional surveyor be involved, somewhere along the way, potentially in some truly insignifcant capacity.

In any case, and in the final analysis, your statement about a professional surveyor's obligation to report abuses of BOR laws, might be one way to help the BOR become a little more aggressive with this issue and act just a little outside their very comfortable, comfort zone. Of course,