*%$@!&* Engineers

Ruel del Castillo, post: 327832, member: 137 wrote: ....It has been my experience that most of the engineers that I deal with that are worth a damn have been involved in surveying somehow at some stage of their lives - class, summer job, etc. They seem to be more practical and can relate their work to the ground.

I don't know. I might argue just the opposite. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I can't count the engineers who have told me that they "used to be a surveyor". On questioning I find they held the rod for a 6 week stint one summer. For some its good, some take it as further proof that they know it all. For those tended to be the latter I'd prefer they knew nothing at all about what I do and let it be.

I am reminded of a story Tim McCarver, the baseball broadcaster and former catcher, tells. He went out to the mound to talk to Bob Gibson about how to pitch to the next batter. Gibby wasn't known for mincing words, particularly during the heat of battle. Before McCarver could get anything out Gibson turned him around by saying "the only thing you know about pitching is that it's hard to hit".

That Gibson quote leaves out some colorful language.

I agree with your assessment of most engineering curricula. I made it through a 4-year civil engineering program at Rutgers without so much as 1 minute of instruction about surveying. I had to take 4 semesters of structural engineering even though my focus was on transportation and traffic. Fortunately I got experience through a paid internship and went on to get another degree specifically in surveying. I think it should be required for engineering and architecture students to have 1 semester of surveying. They don't have to be experts in it, but they should not be totally oblivious either.

There is one engineer I've known who worked with a surveyor for a couple of seasons 30 years ago and has on several occasions rendered his criticism of my professional judgement. He has no knowledge of current technology or current regulations/ case law.:-@

Ruel del Castillo, post: 327832, member: 137 wrote: Back in 1943, my dad graduated from Rice University with a degree in mechanical engineering...

I was raised by, and worked a great deal of my career with that generation of engineers. At that time Oklahoma (if not a good deal of the other states) had no licensure for surveyors. CEs were the surveyors around here. The engineering curriculum around here continued on with providing elementary civil surveying principles with the engineering well past the 1970 date that surveyors were required to be licensed. I'm sure, like you noted, that over the years the scholastic engineering rigors have dropped the emphasis on civil surveying. But even 'back in the day' the focus of study was more engineering surveying than actual land surveying. I think I have one old textbook (Breed & Hosmer) that actually had a chapter on our PLSS and other systems in the US, but it was rudimentary at its best.

I don't see it as such a bad thing. Oh, I think it would be great if all engineers, architects, developers, city managers and public works directors were required to take courses in surveying...so they could understand what function we actually perform. Let them study their discipline and we'll take care of ours. I'm sure there will always be professionals that have opinions, and may even spout about, of other professions. Engineers that think they're surveyors are just as humorous as a drug addict that successfully makes it through treatment and then considers himself an expert on recovery. Or someone that has survived brain surgery considering themselves a surgeon.

Along those lines...I know that Q=va...hey, I must be a hydraulic engineer!

I think for closely aligned professionals (such as architects and engineers) that are required to get a formal education and take board exams for licensure, there should be a requirement in their curriculum for 1 elementary surveying course and a couple exam questions on surveying. I find some have a good enough understanding to at least know what to ask for on a project or when to call a surveyor, but there are some who don't. That shouldn't be acceptable.

paden cash, post: 327866, member: 20 wrote: Oh, I think it would be great if all engineers, architects, developers, city managers and public works directors were required to take courses in surveying...so they could understand what function we actually perform.

Food for thought: Since they don't have the knowledge we wish they had, what can we do that will help?

I think our professional associations must provide outreach training for those people. Host free or low cost relevant seminars designed to tell our story and to build trust. We have ample opportunity to shed our insular habits and to help them see the value in our expertise.

Bottom line: We can't continue doing what we've always done. Apparently, it doesn't work so well. Time now for a new direction.

Todd

Pssst. I probably shouldn't tell you guys this, but, engineers have similar discussions about surveyors. Only the subject matter has changed.

Years ago, I was told by an old surveyor that the necktie was worn by engineers so that a surveyor could grab hold & pull his head outta there...