Simply being on someone else's land is not trespassing in any state of the US that I'm aware of.
Otherwise a certain group of holy people would have to find something else to do on Sunday and there would be no such thing as a the door to door salesman.
Mail carriers, deliveries, newspapers, census takers, and the like. I think this is a category of invitees.
It would be helpful to know what state that this survey was made in order to avoid the splatter of responses.
I'm under the impression that in my state, I would not be violating any right of entry/trespassing law unless I was told by the landowner to leave and refused. Then they could call the sheriff to enforce the law.
On large projects, it is prudent to attain right of entry permission before work commences. But for regular surveys, I don't think anyone tries to acquire permission and operates under the scenario that I described above.
More permissive right of entry laws were attempted a few year back, but large special interests (RR and large land holding corporations), had the political means and stroke to defeat the law. It is a shame, that these special interests could have been excluded so that land surveyors could perform surveys without violating trespass laws.
Perhaps you could verbalize on your map that the line was placed based upon fence evidence without showing any incriminating graphics.
Licensed Land Surveyor
Finger Lakes Region, Upstate New York
imaudigger, post: 330886, member: 7286 wrote: Ya, that's California for you. I guess trespass must be difficult to prosecute.
Basically it boils down to respecting "no trespassing" signs and in the absence of signs, not damaging other's property. Leave gates the way you found them. Leave when your asked to. Did that cover it all?
Just in case there is still confusion there is one of these along my driveway.
Why can't the idiots put those signs on their own property?
I've found those signs literally hundreds of feet into the state forest and facing the wrong way. Let us just say the sign did not survive the day.
This week I was on a state facilility...the knucklehead gun nut idiot neighbor had his signs on the road at our boundary as if our property is his? Then he starts plinking away with a 22 anytime someone gets within 50' of his property. He even plinks away at people on the public reservoir adjoining his property (the take line is well above the water). He is obviously a coward hiding on his property plinking away like that...never came out and just talked to me like a normal human being.
In Tennessee we have right of entry, but must notify the owner, however that can constitute leaving behind a business card on the door. Kansas law is similar. We are only responsible for actual damages, not punitive. The owner can't prevent us getting access, but can augment our visit to a time convenient for them. All that said I typically don't worry about it if the extent of trespass is just enough to locate a fence or monuments. My other thought with it being a RR ROW I would have likely just located the tracks, and held the distance from the centerline for the ROW in the record. In Tennessee in the absence of other evidence as a last resort RR Tracks, and even paved roads can be considered record monuments if referenced in deed or plat. I have been in those situations where we had an entire sewer line project shut down because of hostile property owners. We always left when asked, and left it to the client requesting the survey to get us access. It's no fun having to mark a property line with a deputy following to make sure property owners don't shoot you 🙂
Who owns the railroad right of way?
Some signs are more meaningful than others...
Ethics. Schmethics.
JPH, post: 330842, member: 6636 wrote: I ended up trespassing onto an adjoinerÛªs land in order to locate wire fence remains that evidence the former RR ROW. I didnÛªt cut or disturb anything, and in my opinion, these shots were necessary, as they, along with one other fence location on the locus property, were the only way to nail down the ROW. Everything else in the area has been graveled and disturbed in some way, and there are few other plats, with no existing monuments to tie into.
That said, when I draw my plat, IÛªm hesitant to show these shots, as it records my trespass. The state has no trespass law, and the adjoiner, I'm told, is against this project.
I can easily set other monuments, but doing so, in my opinion, will leave open the question of how I tied into the old ROW.
Maybe no one will question it or even care. Just wondering what others of you here think about this, and whether youÛªd have done the same in this situation.
Trespassing is a misdemeanor in Texas and I know of surveyors or their crews being taken to jail for it.
We still sneak in - It's called sht and git.
Alan Cook, post: 330967, member: 43 wrote: Who owns the railroad right of way?
A private party now owns the RR ROW, and it's the same owner on the other side of the fence, so I'm on their property no matter which side I approach it from. And I'm about 100' off the road ROW. They are against the project that I'm surveying for, and I'd already been told by lawyers that I don't have permission to be on their land.
I did it because it was one of the only areas that looked undisturbed, and figured that it was my best chance to find pieces of the old fence, and I was right.
Do you send letters notifying and asking for permission?
This is a little off topic, but I worked with a smarty pants surveyor in the early 80s who always had some ignorant excuse for the stupid things he did. One of his "unwritten rules" of survey ethics was if you parked your vehicle and threw a set of plans on the dash board you had a right to be there. On a cool spring day on a pipeline survey he took it to a new level. He got his truck stuck trying to cut across a farmers property and helped himself to the farmers John Deer tractor to pull his vehicle out of the mud. As he was driving the tractor back to where he got it the farmer drove up behind him with shot gun in hand. To say the least he was not a bit amused at the surveyors excuse for " borrowing" his tractor. Once the farmer established he worked for the pipeline company via a private survey firm and was trespassing on his property, he walked the surveyor and his crew to the boundary of his land and told em to get to stepping. It cost the survey company several thousand dollars to recover the vehicle and the equipment in it. All perfectly legal in the state of Texas. To my dismay my boss did not fire this idiot. He just told him to stay in the pipeline easement and to call the office if he gets stuck again.
Dave Karoly, post: 330952, member: 94 wrote: Why can't the idiots put those signs on their own property?
I've found those signs literally hundreds of feet into the state forest and facing the wrong way. Let us just say the sign did not survive the day.
This week I was on a state facilility...the knucklehead gun nut idiot neighbor had his signs on the road at our boundary as if our property is his? Then he starts plinking away with a 22 anytime someone gets within 50' of his property. He even plinks away at people on the public reservoir adjoining his property (the take line is well above the water). He is obviously a coward hiding on his property plinking away like that...never came out and just talked to me like a normal human being.
Personally I would have felt it was my responsibility to make contact before I worked along his property line. I would have let him know what I was doing and what days/hours I would be there. Many times there are benefits to doing this such as convenient access or goodies at lunch.
I own property that is bordered on 3 sides by public land. You would be surprised at the stunts that people pull with no consideration for anyone else but themselves. It's almost like being on public land is a license to be a scum bag. The level of severity is in direct proportion to the distance to the nearest town.
I would show it all on the drawing.
It would be a good idea to try to get a law on the books regarding surveying. You absolutely can't do a boundary survey without trespassing. Of course the best scenario is to get written permission to be on an adjoiner's property, but that sometimes can very difficult, and it is so much easier to just jump over a fence real quick when no one is looking and get the little bit of work done. If your working in a subdivision, you need to search for and find all the corners you can in the other lots (in my humble opinion), being a part of a simultaneous conveyance and all.
rochs01, post: 331002, member: 266 wrote: Trespassing is a misdemeanor in Texas and I know of surveyors or their crews being taken to jail for it.
We still sneak in - It's called sht and git.
Does anyone know of any surveyor in the conduct of his duties being successfully prosecuted for trespassing?
According to Black's Law Dictionary, A trespasser is One who has committed trespass. One who intentionally and without consent or privilege enters another's property. One who enters upon property of another without any right, lawful authority, or express or implied invitation, permission, or license, not in performance of any duties to owner, but merely for his own purposes, pleasure or convenience.
The way our land tenure system relies on surveyor's abilities recover evidence (wherever it may be) to retrace existing and the creation of new boundaries. Also, if you are performing a boundary survey, you are also not just responsible to the person you are working for, but also the public in general.
For all of you with no, or badly written trespass laws, Illinois (despite all their problems) have a very good law.
No notice.
No criminal or civil trespass.
(225 ILCS 330/45) (from Ch. 111, par. 3295)
Sec. 45. Entry upon adjoining land; Liability for damages. A Professional Land Surveyor, or persons under his direct
supervision, together with his survey party, who, in the course of making a survey, finds it necessary to go upon the land of a
party or parties other than the one for whom the survey is being made is not liable for civil or criminal trespass and is liable
only for any actual damage done to the land or property.
(Source: P.A. 93-467, eff. 1-1-04.)
I'm lucky in that I'm covered by the following:
-----
27. Power of entry on land
(1) For the purpose of conducting a survey, a registered surveyor or a person assisting a registered surveyor may, at any reasonable time, in accordance with this section ÛÒ
(a) enter on any land, including land that is not to be surveyed; and
(b) open a door, gate or fence; and
(c) place a survey mark on the ground of any land entered; and
(d) enter any building; and
(da) break up the surface of any land, whether paved or not, to search for survey marks or physical objects; and
(e) trim a tree or bush obstructing a survey.
(2) Nothing in subsection (1)(e) authorises a registered surveyor to trim a tree or bush if, in so doing, he or she would contravene or fail to comply with ÛÒ
(a) any other Act or law; or
(b) a permit granted under any other Act; or
(c) a condition attaching to any other authority so granted.
(3) A registered surveyor or a person assisting a registered surveyor may enter on land that is not owned by the person for whom the survey is being conducted only if, before entering, the surveyor has given to the owner of the land reasonable notice, oral or written, of the surveyor's intention to enter on the land.
(4) A registered surveyor or a person assisting a registered surveyor may enter a building or part of a building that is not occupied by the person for whom the survey is being conducted only ÛÒ
(a) if the occupier has consented, orally or in writing, to the entry; or
(b) in accordance with an order of a magistrate.
(5) A registered surveyor or a person for whom a survey is being, or is to be, conducted may apply to a magistrate for an order under subsection (4)(b).
(6) A person must not, without reasonable excuse, hinder or obstruct a registered surveyor, or a person assisting a registered surveyor, in the exercise of the surveyor's powers under subsection (1).
Penalty:
Fine not exceeding 50 penalty units or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months, or both, and a further penalty not exceeding 5 penalty units for each day during which the offence continues after conviction.
-----
It is trespassing when you get caught, otherwise it is the magic of surveying.
imaudigger, post: 331129, member: 7286 wrote: Personally I would have felt it was my responsibility to make contact before I worked along his property line. I would have let him know what I was doing and what days/hours I would be there. Many times there are benefits to doing this such as convenient access or goodies at lunch.
I own property that is bordered on 3 sides by public land. You would be surprised at the stunts that people pull with no consideration for anyone else but themselves. It's almost like being on public land is a license to be a scum bag. The level of severity is in direct proportion to the distance to the nearest town.
I hear that. People are definitely pigs.
This guy is a nut...he's already been issued a criminal trespass warning by SO, CHP and our LEOs. Typical RW nut...the rules apply to everyone else, not me. Our property is not a park. We even have a sign on his access road, no access to lake this way. The road goes north across our property on the west side (he has an easement), then turns east and runs across the south edge of his property (we have an easement but that didn't stop him from blocking it). The road eventually goes to a couple of employee houses on our property. They can get there by driving through the facility so the blocked road hasn't been a big problem. I don't care for all one-way type of people...I want to use my easement but you can't use your easement.