I ended up trespassing onto an adjoinerÛªs land in order to locate wire fence remains that evidence the former RR ROW. I didnÛªt cut or disturb anything, and in my opinion, these shots were necessary, as they, along with one other fence location on the locus property, were the only way to nail down the ROW. Everything else in the area has been graveled and disturbed in some way, and there are few other plats, with no existing monuments to tie into.
That said, when I draw my plat, IÛªm hesitant to show these shots, as it records my trespass. The state has no trespass law, and the adjoiner, I'm told, is against this project.
I can easily set other monuments, but doing so, in my opinion, will leave open the question of how I tied into the old ROW.
Maybe no one will question it or even care. Just wondering what others of you here think about this, and whether youÛªd have done the same in this situation.
What are the trespass laws in your state (not right of entry, just general)? Is the property posted? We have no right of entry in NH but unless its posted or they ask you to get off the property you are not actually trespassing by law.
Paul D, post: 330844, member: 323 wrote: What are the trespass laws in your state (not right of entry, just general)? Is the property posted? We have no right of entry in NH but unless its posted or they ask you to get off the property you are not actually trespassing by law.
Not saying you're wrong but many states specify trespassing as a "misdemeanor" when it is done on posted property or when told you can't enter the property and a "violation" on un-posted property. It's a act that, in our ever simple legal system, is illegal without being criminal - subject to a fine but not jail time - similar to a traffic violation.
Could you have in theory shot this with a reflectorless total station?
James Fleming, post: 330849, member: 136 wrote: Not saying you're wrong but many states specify trespassing as a "misdemeanor" when it is done on posted property or when told you can't enter the property and a "violation" on un-posted property. It's a act that, in our ever simple legal system, is illegal without being criminal - subject to a fine but not jail time - similar to a traffic violation.
I may well be wrong, not a lawyer and never had an issue. I am mainly speaking to rural tracts with absentee land owners, not someones back yard.
JPH, post: 330842, member: 6636 wrote: I ended up trespassing onto an adjoinerÛªs land in order to locate wire fence remains that evidence the former RR ROW. I didnÛªt cut or disturb anything, and in my opinion, these shots were necessary, as they, along with one other fence location on the locus property, were the only way to nail down the ROW. Everything else in the area has been graveled and disturbed in some way, and there are few other plats, with no existing monuments to tie into.
That said, when I draw my plat, IÛªm hesitant to show these shots, as it records my trespass. The state has no trespass law, and the adjoiner, I'm told, is against this project.
I can easily set other monuments, but doing so, in my opinion, will leave open the question of how I tied into the old ROW.
Maybe no one will question it or even care. Just wondering what others of you here think about this, and whether youÛªd have done the same in this situation.
TO RESTATE AGAIN YOU COULD HAVE TAKEN A REFLECTORLESS SHOT OR EVEN TRIANGULATE ITS POSITION
Well, here's my take on it:
Would you put anything on the face of your survey that wasn't fact?
I guess what I'm getting at is our surveys are not only a record of our performance, but also a testament to our professional ability to be relied upon for factual reporting of our measurements and actions. To ponder whether something should be shown or not seems like a preponderance of prevarication. If it's not worth showing on the survey, don't shoot it...trespassing or not.
I have been fined for "destruction of public property" by digging a section corner out of fresh asphalt overlay (it is true..). But I still state on my surveys "fnd. 1/2" rebar per references, 0.6' deep." In doing that I suppose I'm 'recording' my misdemeanor activity of "destroying public property" time and time again....
It's an interesting question...one wishes Dave Ingram were around to chime in.
Working in a state with no right of entry law for surveyors, I know I've trespassed in the letter, if not the spirit, of the law since I began surveying. Usually, as others have mentioned, in unoccupied rural parcels; sort of a "no harm no foul" situation.
I don't know if this is quite what the original poster was going for, but I've often wondered what the obligation we have, as members of a what we like to refer to as a quasi-judicial profession, to the idea of "the law" in abstract. When one flaunts one area of the law by trespassing (or, say, accepts cash for payment and doesn't report the income, etc.) does this affect, for lack of a better term, their moral authority to stress the compliance with the law in another?
Just rambling to avoid real work on a Friday morning, sort of Paden-esque 😀
IMO any evidence found that influences the location of a boundary should be shown. As far as shooting it in with a reflectorless total station, you may have been able to do so but I am guessing to find the fence required you to go on someone else's property.
Yes, I had to fish around a bit in the dirt and leaves to find the old wire, so I couldn't have located it off-property reflectorlessly.
The problem here is that the adjoiners all around are seriously against this project and showing something like this may stir up a sh!t storm.
I have been told by former bosses, that here in NC, surveyors have a right to be along the boudaries of parcels, to look for evidence along the boundaries even adjoining tracts for ties to their corners. We dont have the right to be out in the middle of an adjoining parcel without permission from the owner. We have had to have a deputy go with us on sketchy situations, like new sewer design where the land owners are giving us problems. Usually they have it out for the town or municpality. I would like to see the actual statute. I am working on one right now where the adjoiner has a line posted 20 to 30' across the line. What then?
Practically, I seriously doubt that showing the evidence on your plat will cause you a problem. First of all, the adjoining owner would be more likely to accuse you of trespassing based on what he sees on the ground than what is on your plat. If the property is not posted and you did not damage the property, you were working to everyone's benefit by diligently establishing the true boundary. If this gets you in trouble, I will donate to your defense fund. Personally, I would move on with no regret knowing I was just doing the right thing. We can not really perform a boundary survey without touching someone else's property.
JPH, post: 330842, member: 6636 wrote: I ended up trespassing onto an adjoinerÛªs land in order to locate wire fence remains that evidence the former RR ROW. I didnÛªt cut or disturb anything, and in my opinion, these shots were necessary, as they, along with one other fence location on the locus property, were the only way to nail down the ROW. Everything else in the area has been graveled and disturbed in some way, and there are few other plats, with no existing monuments to tie into.
That said, when I draw my plat, IÛªm hesitant to show these shots, as it records my trespass. The state has no trespass law, and the adjoiner, I'm told, is against this project.
I can easily set other monuments, but doing so, in my opinion, will leave open the question of how I tied into the old ROW.
Maybe no one will question it or even care. Just wondering what others of you here think about this, and whether youÛªd have done the same in this situation.
Are you familiar with the trespass laws in your state?
In California, simply being on another's land without permission does not constitute trespass (even if it's fenced).
There must be some form of advance notice (signs or written/verbal methods).
I would show the evidence and if it actually did come up, you probably located it using reflectorless technology.
Anyway - I would not really worry about it, you have already provided plenty of evidence.
JPH, post: 330862, member: 6636 wrote: The problem here is that the adjoiners all around are seriously against this project and showing something like this may stir up a sh!t storm.
I think I would show it and not worry about it.
Joe Public has no idea how the drawing is prepared, and probably won't realize that anyone actually had to physically be there in order to show it on a map.
Gromaticus, post: 330877, member: 597 wrote: I think I would show it and not worry about it.
Joe Public has no idea how the drawing is prepared, and probably won't realize that anyone actually had to physically be there in order to show it on a map.
This. I think most people think that if we can see it we can place it accurately on a plan. Also, they think the total station is a camera, so there is that.
How about just call the local DA and ask them about it? Tell them your situation and concerns. After all, they are the ones that will decided whether or not to prosecute. Even if they take it before a judge he/she can still throw it out.
Fortunately, I never had much trouble trespassing. Only had a gun leveled at me once and immediately explained what was going on. That guy turned out being a very cooperative and helpful adjoiner. Even fed me lunch one day! That blew my crew-mates completely away.
Somehow I got tagged as the "go to" guy when it came to dealing with troubling people. Kind of funny really. I consider myself an introvert. I'd only been surveying for a couple of weeks and didn't really know what I was doing at all. Facing an irate person with a loaded weapon pointed at me wasn't new however. Certainly makes for an interesting day and more fodder for story telling.
E.
imaudigger, post: 330876, member: 7286 wrote: Are you familiar with the trespass laws in your state?
Sweet Jeebus...do you guys have a Full Employment for Lawyers Act out there? That has to be the most complex, convoluted trespassing statue in the nation. :woot:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/14/s602
Ya, that's California for you. I guess trespass must be difficult to prosecute.
Basically it boils down to respecting "no trespassing" signs and in the absence of signs, not damaging other's property. Leave gates the way you found them. Leave when your asked to. Did that cover it all?
Just in case there is still confusion there is one of these along my driveway.
If one wants to get super technical we are trespassing every time we uncover and/or set a prism pole atop a boundary monument.