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Then do Aerial Drone Operators become Surveyors?

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(@bridger48)
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Drone services are exploding and some of the deliverables appear to be in direct competition with the services formerly provided by the professional survey community. Are we as surveyors facing a future where very thing with a Z value is fair game for the drone operators whose only requirement is to be licensed by the FAA.

bridge

 
Posted : February 18, 2016 2:09 pm
Norm
 Norm
(@norm)
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Drone data acquisition needs ground control and ground QC just like any other data does.

 
Posted : February 18, 2016 2:21 pm
(@bridger48)
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Topic starter
 

I understand Aerial photographers a certification requirement?

 
Posted : February 18, 2016 3:14 pm
(@geopro_consultants)
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If you see someone offering authoritative volumetric analysis or professional mapping (via any methodology) look them up on the state licensing site.

If they ( or their company) are not licensed to be offering such services report them.. These button pushers with a $500 drone need to be put in their place.

 
Posted : February 18, 2016 8:42 pm
(@murphy)
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"These button pushers with a $500 drone need to be put in their place."

That attitude reinforces the perception of surveyors as trouble makers and not problem solvers. Volume measurements are rapidly becoming cheap and easy and everyone but surveyors seem to notice this. Using the Board of Licensure to punish "button pushers" may work for a time, but it is not a long term solution for keeping up with the demands of well-funded and politically influential clients who will eventually observe the quickness and reliability of drone measurements in other regions of the world if not here.

A simple solution is to offer construction clients a better product or better service. If they don‰Ûªt need or value either then go buy a $500 drone and stop trying to use government force (fines, fees, criminal records, etc) to harm people for meeting market demands.

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 7:19 am

(@geopro_consultants)
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If you see an ad for someone with a $500 metal locator offering to find property corners, do you file a complaint then? It's just market demand, right?

The current "phodar" systems pose a public threat as unqualified individuals use them and do not know their limitations. These systems are prone to producing deceptively "correct" looking answers based on statistics. The public is unaware of the risks so the boards and professionals need to make the public aware... because the salesman sure as heck aren't going to mention it.

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 8:02 am
andy-j
(@andy-j)
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Licensing boards have always refused to get involved in things like this. They have no power over people not under their umbrella. That would be a legal matter that would have to be addressed by the proper entities.

Personally, I don't worry about drones taking my business. When they are good enough to use for actual surveying, I'll get one too. Until then, they are providing neat images that everyone loves.

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 8:05 am
(@geopro_consultants)
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Andy J, post: 358645, member: 44 wrote: They have no power over people not under their umbrella.

The unlicensed practice of surveying (whether stockpile surveying counts as real surveying, I'm not sure), is under their umbrella. Most state laws are very broad, anything related to authoritative measurements of land is typically included.

In Florida aerial mapping requires a license, there is no doubt this falls under the state board's umbrella in Florida:

http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Divisions-Offices/Consumer-Services/Business-Services/Surveyors-and-Mappers/Licensing wrote: LS ‰ÛÒA "professional surveyor and mapper" means a person who is registered to engage in the practice of surveying and mapping. A person who determines and displays the facts of size, shape, topography, tidal datum planes, legal or geodetic location or relation and orientation of improved or unimproved real property through direct measurement or from certifiable measurement through accepted photogrammetric procedures.

That's my interpretation at least.

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 8:15 am
(@chris-mills)
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SUA are good enough to use for actual surveying - IF they are being operated or supervised by an experienced land surveyor. It's a lot better to train a surveyor to fly the aircraft than it is to give a flyer 30 years of survey experience. To be fair, I should add that having a good experience of traditional aerial survey is also really needed, so as to understand how the mesh of photography can warp very quickly if the controlling network isn't good.

Most drone operators have little idea of ground control and assume that a few GPS points splattered around will give millimetre perfect results. In real life, once the model strays outside the accurate control network then vertical accuracy drops off alarmingly, heading above a metre quite quickly (on a site 800 metres across this can happen well within 100 metres of the utside of the control network).

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 8:19 am
(@jp7191)
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Seems we had these same discussions regarding machine control a few years ago. Surveyors lost that one. My 2 cents, Jp

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 8:26 am

(@dmyhill)
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bridger48, post: 358521, member: 6251 wrote: Drone services are exploding and some of the deliverables appear to be in direct competition with the services formerly provided by the professional survey community. Are we as surveyors facing a future where very thing with a Z value is fair game for the drone operators whose only requirement is to be licensed by the FAA.

bridge

Direct competition does not equal surveying, IMHO.

A "drone operator" becomes a surveyor when they have a PLS. That is the short answer.

There is no law in any state in this country that disallows the use of a total station, GNSS, a measuring tape, a rod, or whatever, by any person that wants to buy one. Using tools, making measurements, even publishing those measurements is not necessarily surveying.

 
Posted : February 19, 2016 9:41 am
andy-j
(@andy-j)
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It may be unlicensed practice indeed.... BUT until you convince those on the legal side of things to crack down on it, there is Nothing the state board can do on it's own.

 
Posted : February 22, 2016 12:50 pm
(@rich)
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geopro_consultants, post: 358593, member: 9959 wrote: If you see someone....with a $500 drone

If you see someone with a $500 survey drone, please ask him where he got it. I just got a bunch of quotes lately in the 12-18k range.

On a side note, I doubt any of these drone guys are competing with us as much as they are with aerial photography companies, many of which have no LS on staff as they are just providing a mass data collection service for surveyors to use.

To do surveying it's nice to collect data from the sky for topo but you still need 'boots on the ground' to get real surveying work done. Just my $0.02

 
Posted : February 23, 2016 4:21 pm
(@chris-mills)
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Quite correct. They are very good for topo, stockpiles, quarries, landfill, etc If you need precise coordinates for points then it's a ground job. Even on topo you need to inspect the ground and pick up any corners which may be obscured, but since you should be walking round to put in adequate control anyway that can be done at the same time. The biggest saving is on rough ground and large areas where two days of ground walking comes down to a 30 minute flight. Most software has good filtering available, although the data may need several passes with different filters to get the best results.

Pricewise, buying the aircraft is only the first stage. You'll soon realise that projects start to create terabytes of data. You also need to allow for a lot of training and any exam courses.. By the time you are competent you can expect the cost to the business to be double the cost of the aircraft.

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 1:38 am
(@coady)
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Whether drone operators become surveyors or not I'm thinking that after the first terrorist uses one of these it will all change very quickly.

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 2:47 am

(@rich)
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chris mills, post: 359355, member: 6244 wrote: Quite correct. They are very good for topo, stockpiles, quarries, landfill, etc If you need precise coordinates for points then it's a ground job. Even on topo you need to inspect the ground and pick up any corners which may be obscured, but since you should be walking round to put in adequate control anyway that can be done at the same time. The biggest saving is on rough ground and large areas where two days of ground walking comes down to a 30 minute flight. Most software has good filtering available, although the data may need several passes with different filters to get the best results.

Pricewise, buying the aircraft is only the first stage. You'll soon realise that projects start to create terabytes of data. You also need to allow for a lot of training and any exam courses.. By the time you are competent you can expect the cost to the business to be double the cost of the aircraft.

Yes. This is why I haven't invested yet. They offer a free weekend of training with the product and training with the software.

However I haven't thought of needed upgraded hardware.

But I'm waiting for new regulations and to see what's required. Hopefully not as much as now once they get different drone classes set up...if there hopefully is like a micro catergory. Requiring a pilot license for a 1.5 lb drone is silly

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 4:38 am
(@rich)
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Coady, post: 359356, member: 6546 wrote: Whether drone operators become surveyors or not I'm thinking that after the first terrorist uses one of these it will all change very quickly.

They practically have... domestic "terrorists" aka all those doofy booger pickers that keep disobeying rules and flying these things and crashing them where they shouldn't be

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 4:39 am
(@chris-mills)
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Rich., post: 359361, member: 10450 wrote: Yes. This is why I haven't invested yet. They offer a free weekend of training with the product and training with the software.

A "free" weekend of training (on the suppliers carefully selected open field where there is nothing for miles) will get you to the stage of sending it off and getting it back again safely. The you get home and try it in your own selected environment and realise all the things you haven't considered. Allow for at least 20 proper flights before you are likely to be ready for passing any exams and make sure you build up gradually for windy conditions. If the wind lifts during your exam and you find it flying at 40mph and making no headway it can be a bit nerve wracking.

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 10:04 am
Jim in AZ
(@jim-in-az)
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dmyhill, post: 358664, member: 1137 wrote: Direct competition does not equal surveying, IMHO.

A "drone operator" becomes a surveyor when they have a PLS. That is the short answer.

There is no law in any state in this country that disallows the use of a total station, GNSS, a measuring tape, a rod, or whatever, by any person that wants to buy one. Using tools, making measurements, even publishing those measurements is not necessarily surveying.

"Using tools, making measurements, even publishing those measurements is not necessarily surveying."

It is in some states...

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 10:08 am
mathteacher
(@mathteacher)
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It may not be the drone operators that are the big threat. On the other hand, equipment might get cheaper; you might be able just to tell the truck to go and collect the points!

http://www.govtech.com/fs/Super-Precise-GPS-Could-Mean-Advances-for-Self-Driving-Cars-Wearable-Tech.html

 
Posted : February 24, 2016 11:51 am

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