Also, let's not overlook the fact that for many firms which use the title "Project Manager", their job is not really to conduct surveys, but do paperwork, personnel and accounting.
Sure, they are technically supposed to oversee the actual surveying, but anyone who has done corporate surveying knows that it is damn near impossible to handhold clients, write up status reports, review billing, correct time cards, write new proposals, go to meetings with regional/corporate, do business development, etc. and still maintain a solid connection with a half dozen ongoing projects, much less the production team.
Thus the incentive shifts from "high performance and efficiency to get the job done right" to "get something, anything, done and shoved out the door so we can bill the client and I don't have to explain poor numbers to the higher-ups, because I already have enough on my plate without actually surveying".
I am all in favor of having someone watching those numbers and running status reports. But it doesn't have to be a PLS. That's administrative work. Once the contract is done and signed, let the team get to work and don't bug them.
Definitely don't do what my firm does, which is yank field crews from the middle of a job to run take care of a crisis, and then not tell the production lead that they won't be back on the first job for several days. Let them focus on the job at hand and take it across the finish line before giving them another one. At the very least break it up into steps that must be completed before they can be rerouted...
The project PLS should be hands-on. They really should be in the field at least 20-30% of the time (at least budget time for them to walk the site with the crew), maintain control over the execution of the job, and mentor the office and field personnel along the way. It's not difficult to do. A small highly skilled team dedicated to one job at a time is far more effective than a large group of half-skilled techs on an assembly line with no ownership of the job and a "manager" that couldn't care less about the quality of the product.
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(Edit to add: someone that does not know how to do what the field crews or the office techs do should never be in charge of production, regardless of whether they have a stamp or not. I have worked for firms where the individual who "won" the work has to manage it in order to get sales credit. That's ridiculous. If they're good at winning work, let them go do more of that while the technical A team gets cracking on the actual project.)
I worked for a firm like that years ago. The head of the survey dept. would research the job (never visiting the site), this was before the GIS we have now. He would come up with an estimate and send us out. All production work, never saw what we shot. Then the engineer would look at things and decide we missed something we knew nothing about and back we'd go. So we started trying anticipate the engineer. Next thing I'm hearing is your jobs are coming in 10% over budget. Told him did you ever think that maybe your budgets are coming in 10% low? Got fired.
In my humble opinion, there are two other (external) factors involved, at least in my area:
One is the fact that the developable areas are getting into lower quality, lower value, as the better parcels have already been bought and improved. The second is that this business is often driven by client based demand.?ÿ
@rover83 This is one of the reasons I like to differentiate between the roles of Project Surveyor and Survey Project Manager
Yeah, the first PLS I worked under said something about hitting 500 topo shots a day once.?ÿ For a while after that I thought I was doing terrible if I didn't get that many regardless of how inconvenient of terrain I was working in.?ÿ I like to think I make draftsmen largely obsolete, at least for topos.?ÿ I use every trick in the book for auto-linework if it's setup.?ÿ It takes about 2 minutes to draft 10,000 of my topo points.
Anyway, yeah spamming points is pretty weak.
Yeah, every place I've worked so far has had PMs and then survey managers as separate positions.
My dad used to ask us "how'd you make out today?"
We'd reply, "Fred, we weren't makin out, we were surveying".
He was my dad, but in the context of the question, he was a surveyor, and I was too. Thus the dis respectful use of his first name.
I don't think he fully grasped the faux pas, because he'd forget, and do it again, next week. I think this is the core problem of the deal though.
Office people who think field crew, who are in varying degrees of development are "makin out".
It's wild. Someone who works in the field sometimes SEES the PM, or office people as "making out", likewise. Not understanding the high value of a good office manager.
A good PM is a real treasure. Proper pricing, and scheduling and job preparation require in depth knowledge of business, and market, and more.
Now, where's that all time great cartoon?
Rodman dreams of being party chief.
Party chief dreams of being PM/owner.
PM owner dreams of being Rodman.
I miss my dad's question today. I'd give anything to hear it again. "Making out" today, means finding a good laptop, and scheduling a new transmission for the van.
I've come around to my dad's way of thinking.
Nate
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One of our more seasoned PLS's has a great statement about this type of situation... "Nothing is impossible to the man or woman who doesn't have to do the work". I'll just leave it at that?ÿ 😉
Saw this and all I could think of is why is the Principal Meridian giving you the stinkeye.?ÿ
It could be a number of things.
First, field guys, some are great, some terrible, and some in between.?ÿ
Assuming that you fall into the top segment, it could be that this PM keeps blowing estimates and isn??t accepting this fact.?ÿ But it could also be that his estimates are fine, but they keep getting shot down and revised by his supervisor.?ÿ Or maybe when he estimates accurately, you don??t get the job because he??s getting under-bid by the competition.?ÿ He could be feeling pressure himself that you??re not aware of.
Depending where you??re located, it could be a tough fence walk, pricing so you get enough work to keep crews busy, and also trying to keep within the budget, while doing the job correctly.
Not saying in your case, but this stink eye you speak of, could be because the PM sees crews coming in at 7:35-7:50, for a 7:30 start time, then there??s bringing the equipment out, getting coffee, bathroom breaks, facebook checking??..and they??re on the road, maybe by 8:30??..and back by 3:00, but their timesheets have 8hrs on the project.?ÿ
And before you get on the PM for allowing this, sometimes it??s not his call if he??s not backed up by upper management, turning a blind eye to this kind of behavior.?ÿ No one wants to be the bad guy sometimes, especially if it??s a well-liked, while under-producing long-tenured employee who may just play golf with one of the owners.
It also could very well be this PM not knowing or remembering what it's like and what things take in the field.?ÿ Some PM??s were terrible field surveyors, but are good PM??s, while some are terrible at both.
If something took a lot more field time than I??d estimated, I??ll sometimes talk with the chief or crew to find out what caused this.?ÿ I??m not necessarily pinning it on them.?ÿ I figure things take what they take, and sometimes they take more than they should.?ÿ Sometimes I make a bad estimate.?ÿ Sometimes the field crew have their heads up their ass.?ÿ Sometimes it??s miscommunication on the scope.?ÿ It??s not always finger pointing, but with some it is.
If you know you??re good, and if you respect the PM, then talk with him about it.?ÿ It helps both of you in the long run.
Seeing threads like this one reminds me how thankful I am that I got away from the corporate grind! I much prefer my smaller (less than a dozen people) firm.
Great perspective, imo.
I've really only run into this sort of situation when I've worked for larger multi-disciplinary engineering companies.?ÿ And even then it only seems to happen when the PMs are trying to find filler work between the bigger transportation or utility projects.?ÿ When you go from working on a 4 million dollar highway project to a 3500 dollar boundary survey with the overhead that a large company has then I'm guessing it's like trying to squeeze blood from a turnip.?ÿ I would expect most PMs to recognize this and be able to see the bigger picture, but I've noticed some have no problem throwing the field crew under the bus to save their own rear end.
@bstrand?ÿ
It's a great lesson for how not to do something.
I've got lots of those lessons, and the opposite too.
Just seems like the not do lessons always have more impact for some reason.
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[?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]?ÿ ?ÿthe PM sees crews coming in at 750, for a 7:30 start time, then there??s bringing the equipment out, getting coffee, bathroom breaks, facebook checking?ÿ [?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ .?ÿ ]
PMs beware you don't step over the line if you're a union shop.?ÿ I was used to walking into the office precisely @ the 7:30 start time and on the road by 7:45-7:50ish.?ÿ Imagine my surprise as a new hire to arrive @ 7:30 and be told I'm late;?ÿ this outfit's protocol was the trucks leave the yard @ 7:30 sharp, which meant you had to show up @ 7:00ish to load up and attend to pre-launch duties.?ÿ The Party Chiefs had to show up even earlier for their paperwork activities.?ÿ
Well, a new hire filed a complaint with the Shop Steward which was quickly adjudicated.?ÿ Upper management was shocked to learn of this PM's policy.?ÿ Paid time starts when you walk in the door and are performing work in preparation for departure.?ÿ The stinker for the PM was a conservative estimate of the unpaid labor performed over the last year (when the PM came onboard and instituted his "I wanna hear truck engines fire up @ 7:30") and everybody got back pay which was about $1,200 per crew; over $12,000 total.?ÿ Ouch for the PM!
1. Is your PM a surveyor??ÿ If not, convince him/her that you need to be involved in the estimating.
2. Hold your crew accountable for their work while being fair and compassionate about field conditions and unforeseen issues that may cause a crew to go over their estimated time schedule.
3. Be fair with your crews and give praise when warranted.?ÿ
@midsouth-surveyor?ÿ
I had a significant problem with time estimates on completing various projects where the PMs, not being surveyors but engineers, for scheduling purposes, were effectively pulling numbers out of thin air and organizing our schedules and deadlines around those estimates. Rather than giving/getting the stink eye, we sat down and talked through the problem and I offered to take over doing the estimates for them so that those numbers were based a little more on reality. Worked out well for everyone. We unpacked the problem and came up with a solution that worked. When we do encounter significant delays, we communicate that up the chain and adjust our schedule accordingly. Maintaining good moral is important to productivity and stink eye at any level is just counter productive.?ÿ
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
At the last firm I worked at, most of the PMs were clueless as to estimating survey budgets. We had one guy who would tell you he had a 8 hour budget for 10 hours of work, not including the 3 hours of drive time - one way. He was always complaining about how much time we took. I finally offered him the GPS and DC and said "here you go, now you don't have anyone to blame but yourself" and drove off site. He called me half an hour later, sheepishly asked me to come complete the task. I obliged, but only after making him promise that he would not set survey budgets without input from the survey staff.
I can't really blame the guy for his unrealistic attitude. I had been working there for 3-4 months before I finally ran into the COO of the company in the firm headquarters. Upon being introduced, his first words to me were "You surveyors are f***ing expensive!", to which I replied that you get what you pay for. Needless to say, I was happy to move onto a much better and smaller firm a few years later. Working at firms where your skill, knowledge, and license are all looked down upon is never worth more than learning what not to put up with from colleagues.
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That's interesting in the different fields that I've worked in I've never had a project manager have any kind of work authority over me whatsoever. Only my direct supervisor, or something up the COC.
I think that problem in the case there right there you just explained there was gross negligence by letting someone who really wasn't competent in charge of people basically being a bully.?ÿ they're lucky they got away with just $12,000. IBM lost 75 million dollars fighting the fight where people had to work at least five to ten per-cent more but didn't get paid for it for about 10 or 15 years. Statute of limitations only goes for 2 years but they lost 75 million dollars that was a really big lesson to learn.