The PM Stinkeye

Call them the moment you realise you will be running over THEIR time budget.

Request that they come and help in the field.

They never will.

But when you get back to the office you can put it on them for PPP (p*ss poor planning) and for providing insufficient resouces.

But yeah, the only real solution is to get them out of your food-chain

I've noticed over the years that a lot of people see in others what they know understand about themselves.?ÿ Someone that is always under the impression you should finish quicker than you do was (or is) probably guilty of the same behavior of which he accuses others.

If you're going about your business in a professional manner there are probably plenty of outfits that could use you.?ÿ Nobody needs a taskmaster with a whip.?ÿ Life's too short.

?????ÿ

I have a good PM so I don't have this problem. The only person ticked off if a job doesn't go well is me. I never get the "why did that take so long?" I do sometimes get "holy crap you got all that done?" The PM has worked with me in the field though so he knows I don't waste time.?ÿ

I did have the same kind of PM as you before though. He retired and now I still have to deal with him asking me for side job surveys. Lol

I've only worked for two different survey companies, but a few more non survey companies in the past with positions similar to PM. I don't think it's a PM thing. I think it's a personality thing. Granted, I am relatively green so I usually figure if something goes wrong it's something I've caused. I am the PM on some small boundary type jobs. I try to do enough pre estimate research to have an idea of what kind of terrain, whether we can get around the parcel easily or not, find some prior surveys, etc. But, sometimes it's just a wreck. When it's a big wreck, we'll talk to the client, tell them what's going on and let them know we are going over and what they want to do. There is a clause in the Survey Agreement about unforseen circumstances, but I don't see that as a pass for missing an estimate. I think maybe the biggest cause of missing an estimate may be shooting from the hip and getting burned, or estimating jobs that they shouldn't be, then the personality/feeling a certain amount of responsibility/embarassment comes out as condescension from a specific PM. This is from the viewpoint of a nonlicensed "PM".

• Usually I only asked how much did you get done today.?ÿ The slackers often found that question offensive.?ÿ Most of the time I wanted to know for planning purposes unless they failed continuously to meet expections.?ÿ I fully understand that poop happens and not everything can be foreseen.

They can only pull that crap if you put up with it.?ÿ

Unfortunately, PMs tend to (about 90% of the time) embody the Peter Principle. If they've gotten to that position, it ain't because they're good at what the position entails.

The good PMs interface with their experienced technical leads (both office and field) to determine what it takes to get the job done right. If they dream up a number and it's not right, from my perspective, that's a YP, not an MP. As a tech lead and PLS I do a lot of assistance, training and troubleshooting across multiple offices, and the one thing I can count on is PMs doing more dreaming than planning.

And I can't remember the last time I calculated a job to be half a day. If it's half a day, it's a full day.

@paden-cash?ÿ

I've noticed over the years that a lot of people see in others what they know understand about themselves.?ÿ Someone that is always under the impression you should finish quicker than you do was (or is) probably guilty of the same behavior of which he accuses others.

Yeah, I think there's probably quite a bit of truth to this.

?ÿ

If you're going about your business in a professional manner...

It's interesting, I tell myself... well, I certainly don't feel slow, but I'm doing it the way I'd do it if I were stamping the deliverable.?ÿ I like to think the justifies the effort, but of course each licensee has their own standard of care.

@jbw?ÿ

Granted, I am relatively green so I usually figure if something goes wrong it's something I've caused.

I used to be like that too.?ÿ It helped to work at a couple different places to get an idea of how other people do things.?ÿ Once you see how some shops get less done with 2-man crews than you could do by yourself the idea that you're single-handedly screwing a project mostly goes out the window.

@fairbanksls

Usually I only asked how much did you get done today. The slackers often found that question offensive.

Ehh, that's a tricky one.?ÿ I think it really depends on the tone of your voice.?ÿ

@rover83

And I can't remember the last time I calculated a job to be half a day. If it's half a day, it's a full day.

Yeah really.?ÿ It takes half a day just for the round trip and setup.

My second job after college, I was working at a company with 4 survey PM's, plus engineers that would occasionally direct a survey field crew on a project. One PM in particular was a hard-ass. Seemed like he was always blaming me for things not going well. I had to admit, there were things I was messing up and needed to improve upon, but it also seemed like he was failing to give me important instructions, then blaming me for not doing needed things. So I started writing down his instructions in the morning, making sure I told him about any problems I could anticipate before they happened, etc. Basically, I worked to improve upon my shortcomings, and to compensate for his. A few years later, I was his "go to" guy. I can't say that I enjoyed working for him, but I at least no longer dreaded working on his projects. I guess my advice is to fix whatever you can about your own work habits, and find ways to compensate for the flaws in theirs.

Peter, my dad was my PM. He had learned "many shortcuts".

I was a field guy, who said, "I'll do it for pay, then to do it right, on my own time".

This meant I was paid for first 1/2 day. Then, I was on my own. I really learned some things this way. I learned typical common shortcuts, how to spot them, etc.

This poverty background has provided enormous things to consider, when surveying.

Then, I got GPS. Now there is even more data on my plate, than I ever thought possible.

And, I enjoy going to court.

Surveying is a labor of love, no matter if you get paid or not enough.

There will always be that job you say "2 days field, 2 days office, um, 4k," that takes 10 total days.

Nate

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Posted by: @bstrand

Is this just the nature of the beast and the only way to truly escape it is to be your own PM?

If there are problems between the project management level staff and the production level staff then that is a failure of management above the PM level.?ÿ I'm removed from the day-to-day survey operations these days, but 3-4 times a year I meet with all the survey department staff.?ÿ At the end of these meeting, I kick all of the office guys out of the conference room and ask the field guys "What do you need to do your jobs efficiently that the office staff isn't giving you?".

Also, no one should be (on a regular basis) making estimates of the field time needed to complete a survey with input from the guys that are going to be doing it.?ÿ I tell my managers that 90% of the issues that come up with staff and clients can be traced back to failures in communication. Too many office guys have the "back in my day we could bang this out in 90 minutes" crappy attitude.?ÿ Well, back in your day the plan requirements didn't include smaller trees, of more detailed utility location, or whatever.?ÿ An organization rises or falls based on the leadership, not the production staff; managers that harp on the producers shortcomings without proposing solutions are of no use to me.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ

I worked for a PLS from 2007-2016ish that ran a shop with 3 (2 man) crews and 2 drafters.

He used to always complain (to the other crews) how one of the crews always took too much time, didn't pick up enough shots, picked up too many shots, etc...

Looking back, I put way too much pressure on myself to crank out the jobs as fast as I could.?ÿ Sometimes to the point of being unsafe (It'll take longer to walk back to the rig and get cones than if we just set up and grab these shots quick). All because I didn't want to be THAT crew that he was complaining about.

I used to get so mad when we'd get back to the office early after finishing jobs we had no right getting done so quickly, because we were running from shot to shot, and not even get a "good job".?ÿ All we would get is the next job.

Now that it's been a few years since I've worked to that surveyor and I've had time to reflect, I realize that the crew he complained about WAS really slow and the pressure and anxiety I felt to get it done fast was all me.

Should he have complained to us about the slow crew??ÿ Probably not.

The job we got at 3pm after finishing 2 others??ÿ I just don't think he thought of it that way.?ÿ It's business, you finish one job you go to the next.

This got pretty long winded but the moral of the story is - Do it right, do it efficiently, do it safe.?ÿ The budget is on the PM.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ

I had a PM call a meeting of the LS's in the office to ask "How many shots should a crew be taking each day?"?ÿ He wanted to use that as a factor in his evaluation of the crews.?ÿ Somehow I couldn't get him to realize that was NOT a number he could use to base the effectiveness/efficiency of a crew.?ÿ He tried it anyway.?ÿ One crew chief just made sure he got his number of shots in per day by taking about twice as many shots as were necessary for locating C&G.?ÿ Instead of "start curve", "center of curve" and "end curve" he would just take a shot about every 10 feet.

Luckily that didn't last long when the draftsmen started complaining about the "mess" of points on the base drawings.?ÿ?ÿ

I didn't last long at that place.?ÿ Quantity over quality never fit with me.

Andy

Posted by: @andy-bruner

"How many shots should a crew be taking each day?"?ÿ

I think there can be a place for that, but it's in developing a regimen for training/mentoring the crews rather than straightforward "you're not keeping up" evaluation.?ÿ

?ÿ ƒ??If you canƒ??t measure it, you canƒ??t improve it.ƒ? - Peter Drucker?ÿ

Posted by: @james-fleming

Maybe, If you can't measure it, you can't tell if you improved it or not.