Attorneys, title companies, lenders, real estate agents, owners are advocates. Land surveyors are fact finders. The land surveyor is NOT an advocate for the client but instead is required by license and/or registration to discover and present all of the facts found in the survey along with an opinion of the boundary location without regard to the impact on the client. Much confusion about this issue can be seen from situations that include, but are not limited to the following:
• The land surveyor being told not to show certain facts that affect the boundary such as, buildings, driveways, easements, unrecorded uses that might be or become easements;
• The land surveyor being coerced by unscrupulous attorneys, title companies, lenders, real estate agents, owners or others into stating that the boundary location is at another location other than where the evidence suggests;
• The land surveyor being coerced by unscrupulous attorneys, title companies, lenders, owners or others into reissuing an old (often ancient) boundary survey that has not been updated with recent field work;
• The land surveyor executing affidavits and/or testifying in hearings to boundary locations that favor the client but which are not coincident with the facts and evidence; and
• The land surveyor being required to wait for payment for boundary surveys until after the closing of the real estate transaction (if the deal doesn’t close, the land surveyor doesn’t get paid).
The land surveyor is NOT an advocate when preparing a boundary survey. Our job is NOT to be a mouthpiece for what a client or other real estate professional wants us to say. This confusion is increased during these tough economic times when many unethical land surveyors will virtually do anything in order to get work.
State Boards of Licensing or Registration for land surveyors must be aware of this important distinction and act to discipline their licensees/registrants for misleading the public by performing such acts of advocacy.
Ted Madson
Tuesday, March 27, 2012
Ted,
I agree 100% of what you say. However, isn't that ethics 101? Or have you noticed a trend in the surveying 'profession'?
Well okay, but what brought this on?
"State Boards of Licensing or Registration for land surveyors must be aware of this important distinction and act to discipline their licensees/registrants for misleading the public by performing such acts of advocacy."
Okay - did you post this to all the State Boards? I doubt that many members frequent this site...
Jim
> The land surveyor being told not to show certain facts that affect the boundary such as, buildings, driveways, easements, unrecorded uses that might be or become easements;
Perhaps more commonly a map gets prepared for one purpose, omitting certain features for legitimate reasons, and then gets used for another. For this reason a surveyor should protect himself by keeping a transmittal record of what he sends out, to whom, and the purpose intended.
> The land surveyor being coerced by unscrupulous attorneys, title companies, lenders, owners or others into reissuing an old (often ancient) boundary survey that has not been updated with recent field work;
This is also a pocketbook issue. Why should a surveyor reissue an old map for nothing? Is it a need to feel loved?
> The land surveyor executing affidavits and/or testifying in hearings to boundary locations that favor the client but which are not coincident with the facts and evidence; and
Lying in court is obviously grounds for revocation.
WHOA THERE!!!!!
>...The land surveyor is NOT an advocate for the client but instead is required by license and/or registration to discover and present all of the facts found in the survey along with an opinion of the boundary location without regard to the impact on the client.
And here I though we were merely gathering facts to turn over to the true professionals (attorneys, title companies, etc) to solve the problems of boundary location.
sarcasm off
We are advocates of our work, however. When we prepare a plan we better be darn sure that it's defensible, and that will make us an advocate for our decisions!
When our decisions are not in our clients self proposed best interest then we better step aside!
I understand where Ted is coming from in his post. There are, no doubt, plenty of PLS's that may not have the fortitude to stand up for their work and may bend to a clients will, or the attorney's argument. BEWARE!!!
Surveyors are advocates for the truth, whatever that may be, unlike attorneys who are advocates for their client.
> Surveyors are advocates for the truth, whatever that may be, unlike attorneys who are advocates for their client.
"I don't care which of you is right as long as I am right."
My standard statement to fighting landowners when called to "survey the line".
I kinda acted as an advocate one time(about 15 years ago).
I surveyed, reported the facts as the descriptions and other pertinent information very ambiguously described, then I placed a monument where my client directed me to for the reason of indicated his(personal) interpretation of ownership that went back about 20 years.
Fact is, the adjoiner and my client then verbally agreed to the corner, then the adjoiner changed his mind when his attorney thought his case was strengthened.
That's the closest I ever came to being an advocate and I wasn't that comfortable with it.
> I kinda acted as an advocate one time(about 15 years ago).
>
> I surveyed, reported the facts as the descriptions and other pertinent information very ambiguously described, then I placed a monument where my client directed me to for the reason of indicated his(personal) interpretation of ownership that went back about 20 years.
>
> Fact is, the adjoiner and my client then verbally agreed to the corner, then the adjoiner changed his mind when his attorney thought his case was strengthened.
>
> That's the closest I ever came to being an advocate and I wasn't that comfortable with it.
:good:
When did this moment of inspiration and wisdom come to you to profess on this board? I remember many, many years ago when the contrary was done by you in litigation I was involved in. Seems like you were hungrier and poorer then. Does one gather this wisdom from being richer and fatter?
Pablo
I have to agree....
...what brought this on?
Of course a surveyor can be an advocate in a boundary survey.
We are expected to be able to form an opinion from our professional work and be able to advocate for our opinion. Certainly it needs to be our own conclusion based on the facts of the case as we find them.
And of course we can never be advocates in the same manner as an attorney. Maybe we need to get some surveyor-attorney seminars lined up for that.
I certainly agree, but it's not always easy, especially on a small island.
When I refused to accept the clients version of a very ambiguous parcel, the project was cancelled (I did get paid in advance) and the client wouldn't talk to me for 5 years.
In a case where I thought my client was wrong, I have also discussed with the client and his Atty. the arguments they could make and the arguments the neighbor could be expected to make, but made it clear my drawings would show the evidence as I saw it. So I was in a sense an advocate.
I have to agree....
> ...what brought this on?
>
> Of course a surveyor can be an advocate in a boundary survey.
>
> We are expected to be able to form an opinion from our professional work and be able to advocate for our opinion. Certainly it needs to be our own conclusion based on the facts of the case as we find them.
>
> And of course we can never be advocates in the same manner as an attorney. Maybe we need to get some surveyor-attorney seminars lined up for that.
I would be wary of every calling myself an "advocate". I see your wordplay a little bit calling yourself an advocate of your 'opinion'. "Advocate" implies representing another person; and being their mouthpiece, so to speak. An advocate will only present facts that favor his/her client. As an expert, I think you form an opinion listening to both sides and looking at all the evidence. I agree with the rest of your post, but I don't think you're really "advocating" your opinion as much as you are just stating it.
Based on this statement: "This confusion is increased during these tough economic times when many unethical land surveyors will virtually do anything in order to get work."; I suspect his statemnt is along the lines of "kids these days" in implying that it is easy to fall into a trap of findings that your clients want you to find, in this economic climate.
But that is certainly how Mr. Madson seems to work on this site. Come in and preach at us a bit, and not really get into the nitty-gritty discussions. More of the teacher's roll I guess.
Advocating One's Opinion...
A surveyor should be careful about considering themselves an advocate of their opinion, even if they are careful about not being an advocate for their client.
Why do I say that?
Because once you start advocating for your opinion, it can become more than just a professional opinion, it can be your brain-child. If you take too much ownership, or perhaps better put: develop too much attachment to your professional opinion, you may no longer be open to letting your opinion be shaped by facts presented which were previously unavailable to you.
If your opinion is truly one arrived at and held by the exercise of professional judgment, then you will have no difficulty in ceasing any advocacy of it if and when you are presented with additional evidence which would have altered your opinion had it that evidence been available to you prior to first making your opinion known.
Pointing out the flaws in the methods or evidence relied on by one presenting a competing opinion is fine, as long as you are also able to acknowledge the aspects of the competing opinion which may represent a reasonable alternative, or even a superior view (maybe the other professional had evidence you were unable to obtain or locate).
Advocating One's Opinion...
:good:
Well put. My sentiments exactly.
Pablo:
You have me at the advantage - you know my last name. To which case are you referring? Could it be the one in which I was acting as an attorney/advocate? Your venomous response suggests that your side must have lost.
Ted Madson
Advocating One's Opinion...
:good:
That was one of the nicest things I have read in a long time. Thanks!
Nate
