Question about legal descriptions in Texas.

I live in Colorado... A buddy of mine moved from here to Texas to run a surveying department.?ÿ ?ÿHe told me about 3 weeks in that he had an RPLS write a legal description which held every single "angle point" in an old and falling down fence.?ÿ The deed call was something like thence N80-30E along the south line and fence line marking it xxxx...?ÿ The guy took the field shots showing angle points where the fence had fallen all over the place and was going to make that south line have 30 angle points. When told that he was dangerously incorrect, he also replied "that's how we do it here".?ÿ Apparently (and of course this is second hand hearsay) that is how they do it there lol.

Interesting!  Maybe there is something to it, ha.

We are a non-recording state. We have a tendency to write robust legal descriptions that reflect the conditions that we find on the ground to help the surveyor following our footsteps. Remember that the deed is just a guide to help you find the monuments in the field. Found monuments trump bearing and distance. Now, I will say that there is a requirement that when the course and distance varies in the field notes, you shall reference the record measurement (usually in parentheses).?ÿ As for the fence situation,?ÿ I would need to know more about the specifics, it could be a fence of convenience or it could be a situation involving bona fide rights. Laugh all you want at the Texans, but we're not a PLSS cookbook state and your SIT might just know more about what's going on than you do.

That’s pretty fascinating!

Non-recording, an interesting concept to me.  That was what I was boggled about...writing a new description for something.  I was like...how does that work with recording?  Do you record it anew every time?  Not having anything recorded obviously answers that question.

Summoning Kent McMillimeter.... i know he is banned, but I'd love to see him educate a noob... I'll do my best to channel him. Tomorrow.?ÿ

I used to work for a guy who was also licensed in So. Carolina. When he worked there, He'd write a new description for every retracement.

Seems like a title nightmare to me.?ÿ?ÿ

The fact that his line work is not connecting and he is moving field collected points around and is still an LSIT would make me wonder just how much real Texas surveying experience that he has.?ÿ As Andy Nold referred to, there is sometimes a reason to write a field note description using the fence, especially if a previous deed conveyed the land in that manner and monumentation will often be set at the various fence angles to perpetuate the point. Back in the 80's, the Veteran's Land Board of Texas required surveyors to not cross a fence because they wanted to have a "clean" survey with no protrusions or encroachments. Many times the surveyor would be able to convince the parties involved that a description of the remaining land in the property should be surveyed and should be purchased outside of the VLB so that gaps would not be created and left out of the land records. That was a real messed up situation that is no longer a practice by the VLB, but we still have to live with the occasional old deed that was created during that period.

As for rewriting every description for every survey that we prepare, it just doesn't always happen that way. Oftentimes the description will not change if the surveyor feels that it accurately represents what he or she found in the field. However, you must realize?ÿ that the land we are surveying is in a constant change due to heating, cooling, slumping, machinery work, etc and therefore the distances and courses will change. Will you report what you actually found on the ground as you are required to do or fall back onto the old description for safety's sake, knowing the next surveyor that follows behind you is going to expose you for committing fraud?

As for anyone telling you "that's how we do it in Texas",?ÿ just remember that Texas is a very big and diverse state and what works and is needed in one part of the state may simply not work in another part of the state. To even make a statement like that would make me doubt his surveying ability.

As for most Texas surveyors, we cannot figure out how you PLS surveyors can go out with your RTK equipment and survey and breakdown those old Sections and come up with?ÿ the same measurements that the old surveyors of a hundred years ago found.

I do not believe that I have the legal authority to re-write a property boundary description without being directed to do so by a court, but I'm not in Texas...

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Doing this in a non-recording State seems fraught with problems...

How was he moving the field points? There have been some Surveys where I blocked the property corners then moved, and rotated them to keep the original basics of bearing.?ÿ ?ÿAs far as rewriting the legal description most of the time you keep what was previous written and updated it, Say if you found or set a corner, what you found marking the corner or what you set to mark it, like a 5/8" capped iron rod. Updated to the current deeds recorded in the courthouse, and the adjoining tracts deeds.?ÿ

Is Kent still banned? I thought it was a temporary ban not a lifetime ban. 

Kent is still listed as a "Group Member" and I thought banned folks were not.?ÿ

He hasn't posted for a couple years, but I thought that was because he got upset with a format change and accusations of posing as other people to incite arguments, and found another outlet for his thoughts.?ÿ He is still #2 in number of posts despite his absence.

Kent is not banned. He was given a short-term timeout to cool off and has chosen not to return. His call.

I think that it is also worth noting:

When a Texan says "Field Notes" he's talking about the legal description; not the notes he wrote in a field book, while out in the field doing his fieldwork.

That threw me at first, too.

In Texas, primarily we have Headrights in East Texas and Sections in West Texas.

For the Headrights, they were created and described by Metes and Bounds and the divisions of are also M&B described.

When we return and make surveys we find what there is and set and restore as needed and then we write a M&B of what we find and report the actual Bearings and Distances we found.

Our BOR and our Rules declare that we make a survey report that in today's world consists of a Drawing and a M&B Description for each and every survey.

Most land owners that fence their property simply use the monuments as a spot location to drop their auger on and place a fence post of some type and others do not agree with the location, toss our monuments into the wind and place a fence corner or not where they want and sometimes put the monument there or in their scrap iron pile.

Like every area, we have had surveyors that have used everything from a drawing scale and an aerial map, some variety of link chain of unknown length, tapes missing a foot or two, slope chaining w/o noting the slope, accurately plumb bob and tension chaining, TS, GPS, wagon wheel and pacing. All of which it was hard to determine the good and bad until the next survey came along.

We have a majority of places that Headrights lived up to being of the correct acreage, which was the intent, and the breakdown of parcels were not done so well from poor measurements or poor math and procedure.

Early Title companies and examiners had fits about having a new description for every new survey and some still use the original property description over and over and expect surveyors to deed stake that on the ground. What a nightmare that would bring upon all the quiet boundaries that have been in place since their origin.

I have followed deed descriptions from 1838 that fit like a glove and others that were WTF happened out there and then recent surveys that were the same conclusions.

Mostly, if a property measures within the BOR recommended closure, no changes are made to the Bearings and Distance and the Bounds part of the older descriptions are updated to show current ownership of the target property and all surrounding adjoining parcels for clarity purposes and to mention and show any pertinent easements and rights of others affected and having interest to the properties.

So, yes, we write a new Metes and Bounds for every new survey.

This is a personal problem, not a Texas problem. The fact that his linework does not connect should be a major red flag. I spent my formative surveying years in Texas, up to and past the LSIT stage, and that was not acceptable practice for any of the dozen or so RPLS I worked under.

Recording state or not, retracement surveys best serve the public and surveyors following after us when we recite what was found on the ground and how it compares to the description of record, found or set monuments with condition, size and location, and current conditions for adjoining parcels (ownership, deed records, etc.). Obviously it depends on where you are working, but I have found it is uncommon for conditions to be exactly the same as when a parcel was first surveyed. When surveyed by a competent licensed professional, the parcel remains the same whether it is surveyed with a chain, EDM, or GNSS. Sometimes, fences are monuments and their locations need to be called out.

In my experience, in Texas a detailed description reporting conditions and field measurements at the time of survey and their relationship to the original description is greatly appreciated over a regurgitated description accompanied by mysterious new monuments, with no apparent origin, in the vicinity of the corners.

I've been working in Texas for 15+ years, formerly from Kansas, and I have NEVER done what the OP states.

You do your research, find monuments in place and note the B/D measured, along with adjoining and record B/D of each line (arcs).

I think the idea that is easily missed when comparing Texas to a recording state, is that the "field notes" should contain the information that a good recorded survey should.

In a recording state there is no reason to complicate and confuse the chain title, becasue the recorded surveys contain the survey information. In Texas that information goes in the description. Unfortunately this method is more prone to lost information, becasue the new descriptions are often not recorded either.?ÿ

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What state doesn't allow surveyors to rewrite descriptions? That is part the definition of the practice land surveying in many states.

Of course whether that is a good idea or not is an entirely different question.

What is done with that description is outside our control...

It is STILL confusing.... *facepalm*