yea, you goofed up. You should have painted the posts flo-pink or flo-orange back then.;-)
This whole thing indicated a lack of understanding of where we come from. We came from CHAINS and LINKS. Most distances were recorded to the closest link. Occasionally the tenth of a link. But, If it were me, I'd retrace it, and IF I found any kind of discrepancy, I'd maybe call you, have coffee, be sociable, and see if your file was available. And, then I'd xref it, and solve it, and get on with it. Shucks. I think you handled it very well, Mr Cash.
N
Here's the deal, fellas
First off, I'd like to thank everybody for their replies. They were all fairly predictable and I can't say there was a one of them I disagree with. There are actually some things we all agree on..in a general sense.
I don't defend my surveys very often. I'd like to think after all these years I have a process in place that makes 'defending' my decisions very categorical and pragmatic. I perform good surveys and extend the proper due diligence; probably more so than others because of my confounding fear of missing something.
There are always surveys and decisions we make that are sometimes based more on hunches and the smell of the dirt than actual facts. Most of us prepare those surveys with the idea in mind we will most likely be called upon to explain ourselves at least, and most likely defend. But my example really wasn't one of those surveys.
In this particular case I felt I was actually being asked to defend my competence more so than my survey. I don't think the other surveyor disagreed at all with my measurements. He was apparently questioning how I could consider my survey to meet standards without any rebars or nails or caps being set. And by the way, I asked several times for a suggestion as to what could have been set in those locations. As far as I remember he never was able to answer that question.
I haven't heard back from him or anybody else concerning the survey. I probably won't.
What I've learned from this is there is more than you're knowledge, experience and technical expertise you may be called upon to defend. You may be called upon to defend your core personal professionalism. It still seems like this guy took a cheap shot at me.
And if anyone that reads this ever finds themselves attacking another surveyor's work in a personal manner; just remember: What goes around, comes around.
g'nite
Yup. Very good job of handling a know-it-all who is a know-nothing.
I've never had all four corners fall inside other objects, but have had three out of four. It is a no-win situation. As has been pointed out above, reference bars on line may be taken as being the true corner no matter what the survey plat says. Also, there are situations where we know our newly set monuments will not survive activities being considered but not finalized at the time we are on-site.
One of the happiest days of my life came along when I learned of the death of know-it-all whippersnapper from natural causes. A terminal cure sometimes is the only positive cure to a persistent problem. Sad. But, true.
> ..One of the happiest days of my life came along when I learned of the death of know-it-all whippersnapper from natural causes.
I've always been of the belief (and I stick to it to this day) that as much "dislike" as I have for an individual, I won't wish death upon them. Let's just say after experiencing almost an entire lifetime...there are some folks whose demise will make me a lot less sadder than others!
By my own confession, I am a Christian. Although my salty adjectives might lead one to believe otherwise, I read the Bible. Now I can't quote Book and Verse, but the Bible tells us that vengeance belongs to God and God only. So it is truly up to him to give some of these obtuse folks their "come-uppance".
And so be it. But I've looked pretty hard in that same Bible and nowhere in there does it say we can't stand on the sidewalk and applaud when God delivers that vengeance. 😉
Here's the deal, fellas
I've said it before and often, and been attacked every time for saying it; but, "Screw these kids."
If this is "our" future, I'm happy that my career is in its twilight hours.
Actually, I would be happy anyway. I'm finished fighting, you know?
It really doesn't matter any more.
Be here now:-)
Don
Many years ago in Dewey, Oklahoma
I drove past a funeral home that had a portable advertising type sign next to the highway. It read: Live your life so that at your funeral there will be more mourners than cheerleaders.
The fellow mentioned above was a jerk of the highest order. I didn't wish for his death, but I sure don't miss him.
Had This Guy Actually Been To The Site Yet?
Yeah...I like "Fence Post on Corner" - how else could that be interpreted??
One heavy Ding Dong...
This guy sounds, to me, like a lot of surveyors I knew back in the day (ie: I don't think it's so much an age thing). Spouting off and jumping to conclusions about everyone else. He is going to run around telling off every surveyor he ever made bad assumptions about and will eventually find some guys who won't be as nice as you.
I have seen enough party chiefs and licensed surveyors make striking statements, or putting down someone for their mistake and then end up making a much larger blunder on their own. You are absolutely right about what goes around comes around. He will find himself soon enough trying to defend some blockhead thing he has done.
What I take away from these kind of lessons is that I never treat another surveyor that way. In dealing with a guy who I think I disagree with or don't understand what they did, I call them up and say "I am looking @ your old survey and I can't figure out what you did. Can you help me out here?" Often I find that what I thought looked all screwed up was actually a good decision. Go around telling these other guys off will burn bridges and when the day comes that you need some information from one of these guys, good luck getting it.
Frankly, I'd hate to be that foolish guy.
A few years ago I was working a couple counties away and discovered what appeared to be a mistake made by a surveyor that is old enough to be my grandfather. I had met him before and respected him even though I hadn't followed him enough to know the quality of his work. I called him and basically said "Mr. B, I am following a survey you did in 19xx and I'm coming up with a difference. Could I set up a time to sit down with you and review everything? You might have some info that I missed and could affect what I'm working on." When I got to his office, I was greeted with a firm handshake, a smile, coffee and donuts. He said "Son, in all my years surveying I've never been approached in such a professional manner concerning a difference in opinion. I want you to know how much I appreciate and respect that." To be respected by such a seasoned surveyor made me feel really good. I try to use that approach every time. It hasn't failed me yet. It also makes the taste of "crow" a lot less bitter when it is my mistake.
Stacy
Good on ya. I'm glad the old gent was able to pass on to you some of the secrets of the business.
If there is any surveyor that reads this that will say "they've never made a mistake", they're wrong. We all make mistakes. The longer you live and the more surveys that go out the door, the more chances there are for a screw-up to slip past. I'm sure we all try to minimize published errors, but they will stay with us as long as we survey.
There was a young man that worked under me a long, long time ago. He eventually obtained licensure and has done really well for himself. A few years ago he called and had found where I had transposed a North and West bearing with a North and East bearing. He was sooo polite and apologetic I had to laugh. Hey man, I screwed up! I thanked him for his diligence.
Most of us would prefer being notified when our "boo-boos" get discovered. B-)
The Late Darrel D. Shine he had a quote and I am paraphrasing I will have to look it up when I get home, but it was something like this.
There are those few boundary jobs where I never feel quite 100 percent about the boundary decision, however I also have no doubt that I made the right decision.
Sounds like the boundary you did, you didnt feel quite right about not setting corners, however you also knew the fence post where correct.
The guy probably put in a low bid, and was upset with the extra work he had to do, you should drive by the site and see if he set any corners. If he didnt call him up and say .......
Any idea what this surveyor intended to do as far as setting corners or was his plat going to follow your lead? I agree with MightyMoe on the offset or witness corners being a bad idea. There seemed to be an era here where that was the thing to do, but many surveyors have since backed away from the 1' or 2' offset corner due to exactly what has already been stated. I have even seen 0.1' offset corners on sidewalks when they could not set a monument next to a building face.
Property owners, for the most part, do not understand the verbiage on the plats, but they do see the monuments and just assume that is the corner to build to. Regardless of what you have on your plat, there probably is some liability involved for the surveyor when someone uses the offset monument as the true corner and then a fence or house needs to get moved.
Your particular surveyor involved must really think he is something special to be calling you on this one. Again, I would like to know what he intends to do.
Update (kinda)...
Apparently the other surveyor doesn't hang out here, but we have a common acquaintance that read my post and dropped me a line.
From what I got, second hand, he (the other surveyor) had been conscripted to layout some new construction on the property. An expense the contractor felt was required because of the proximity of the new building to one of the property lines.
Like I said, this is second hand, but the surveyor wasn't able to occupy any of the corners with his robot, nor could he do a resection that was anywhere near what he felt was "close enough". There was only one other existing pin in that side of the block (that I can remember) that was within optical equipment range of the actual property. I don't know if he attempted to traverse to the other side of the block and bring in any 'control'. Apparently he was frustrated by the fact the contractor and owner were breathing down his neck. Kinda sounds like maybe they were on site, something that always adds a little "drama" to a job. 😉
All here say, but it sounds reasonable. I wish he had called me while he was out there. I had two control points from when I had the TS set up that are probably still there; 60d nails in the grass between the property and curb. These points did not show up on the client's copy of my survey.
I would have been more than happy to send him some coords or give him some bearings and distances...if he had just asked! I'd like to think he maybe learned something. My gut feeling is that, sadly, he probably did not.
:good: :good:
Update (kinda)...
I guess asking some guy for some control while your attempting to chew him out, just isn't a good combination.
Update (kinda)...
So let me get this straight.
He got a copy of your old survey.
He got his equipment out and couldn't set up on, or finely shoot any of the corners.
He doesn't want to use other points shown on your survey.
He calls you and chews you out over this "problem".
I don't know how many times I've been asked to lay out a site where there were NO CORNERS left by the previous surveyor. Either the other surveyor didn't set them at all, or he did and the demolition crew beat us to the site.
If this fellow thinks you're an example of an incompetant practitioner, he's going to be in for a rude awakening.
Update (kinda)...
"let me get this straight.
He got a copy of your old survey.
He got his equipment out and couldn't set up on, or finely shoot any of the corners.
He doesn't want to use other points shown on your survey.
He calls you and chews you out over this "problem".
I don't know how many times I've been asked to lay out a site where there were NO CORNERS left by the previous surveyor. Either the other surveyor didn't set them at all, or he did and the demolition crew beat us to the site.
If this fellow thinks you're an example of an incompetant practitioner, he's going to be in for a rude awakening."
GEZZ!!!
From the first time I read this I was thinking the same thing. I can't remember the last time I sat up on a property corner. Property corners and property lines are a bad place to be.
Update (kinda)...
Something tells me this fellow will need to get kicked in the teeth a few times before he learns anything. I'm still a bit confused on whether he contacted you for some help, or just to vent his frustration and put his ignorance on display. If it was for help, he might consider a more humble approach the next go around. One should probably not pee in the well from which one may some day need a drink.
