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OK, who put the kink in the state line?

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holy-cow
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Wyoming/Montana state line on the south side of Powder River County.?ÿ What happened to cause the significant bend?


 
Posted : April 13, 2021 9:38 pm
jitterboogie
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The yellowstone caldera? ?????ÿ

?ÿ


 
Posted : April 13, 2021 9:49 pm
FL/GA PLS
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Geotechnical anomaly?


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 5:06 am
paden-cash
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The fact that the state line lies on the 45th. parallel is a big clue.?ÿ Parallels were our predecessors' version of a what we call a pincushion.?ÿ?ÿ

No doubt all that good fresh air made surveyors feel their work was superior to the previous guy's work.?ÿ They felt no need to dig up the old stuff...just set up and start anew!?ÿ ?ÿBesides, the difference between the two lines is less than 30 arc seconds...and I don't think the instruments back then had marks that small on their circles....?ÿ 😉


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 6:14 am
mathteacher
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@holy-cow

How on earth did you find that little jog?


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 6:16 am

NotSoMuch
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Closing course between 2 lines run from opposite directions?


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 6:22 am
holy-cow
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@mathteacher

Searching for potential places that might be at least 20 miles to any road.?ÿ Seemed like a logical spot to search.?ÿ Have to get in quite close to see roads.


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 7:41 am
MightyMoe
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@holy-cow

It's not the only jog, look at the state line as it crosses the Clark's Fork River and you will find a matching jog. The reason for both becomes fairly clear.?ÿ

I've been lucky enough to survey near both jogs, they are historically monumented with GLO retracements or private monuments. Near the Powder River jog there are some nicely marked original wood posts. Not many of those left.?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 7:52 am
MightyMoe
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the east jog (Powder River):

The west jog (Clark's Fork):

There are other kinks and jogs and direction changes but I believe these two are the large ones.?ÿ

Mile markers run west to east.

The west jog at MP 98 the east jog at MP 255


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 8:11 am
mathteacher
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@mightymoe

I thought that this was the original survey of the East Jog, but it says the boundary line has been retraced. These old maps are amazing in their detail and the location information they contain.?ÿ

Survey Details - BLM GLO Records


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 12:34 pm

MightyMoe
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@mathteacher

The east jog is part of some independent resurveys on the Wyoming side redoing the original 1884 Ed. F. Stahle survey. If I remember Stahle "surveyed" the township in the Powder River breaks in two days,,,,,,,,,,,,in January. Although it is a partial (about 1/2) township?ÿ

The tracts are inholdings. The Montana side is a newish original survey completed a few years before the independent resurveys.?ÿ?ÿ

One of Sitting Bulls major camps is in this area.


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 2:04 pm
mathteacher
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@mightymoe

I always learn from you. "Inholdings" was a new term for me, but lo and behold, there are inholdings in the Nantahala and Pisgah National Forests right here in NC, with big conservation purchases announced from time to time.?ÿ

Mr. Stahle's name appears many times on the Wyoming side. Apparently, there was also an L. Stahle.


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 3:29 pm
aliquot
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@mathteacher

The real details are in the notes.?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 3:46 pm
holy-cow
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I've seen examples of doing an entire township of rough county in two days in late December.?ÿ At least the leaves would have been off what few trees existed but much of the ups and downs should have been done with half chains or quarter chains.


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 3:52 pm
mathteacher
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@aliquot

Yes. The GLO site has the map but not the notes.?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 4:01 pm

MightyMoe
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@mathteacher

It's more correct to say the tracts are retracements of bona fide rights. The State line in that area was surveyed with mile markers in 1880. The Stahle survey was 1884. It was canceled and the 1917 independent resurvey was executed. They first protected the bona fide rights of patent holders with tract surveys. Then they filled in with sectional surveys around the patents. Some tracts in an independent resurvey township are patents from a different original township. The Stahle survey does not show a jog in the state line, he should have found it being only 4 years removed from the original state line survey.?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 4:45 pm
RADAR
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Posted by: @paden-cash

30 arc seconds...and I don't think the instruments back then had marks that small on their circles

exactly...


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 4:48 pm
MightyMoe
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@mathteacher

If you want to look at notes it's easy to access the Wyoming site. search "GLO NOTES AND PLATS WYOMING" and you should find everything you might want to see. In Montana I would call the BLM and have them send me a scan. If you search the Wyoming site I recommend doing it in Internet Explorer. I have trouble with Microsoft Edge getting the notes to open.?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 4:48 pm
scottb
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I have a couple interesting articles on the survey of the line, don't know if it explains the kinks, but they are an interesting read.

The first is a collection of "Field Notes of the First Sixty Miles of the Northern Border of Wyoming Territory" made in the year of A.D. 1879 by Rolling I. Reeves U.S. Surveyor and Astronomer. It explains a lot of the trials and travails of the survey. Not all the field notes were available. It started at the NW corner of Wyoming and headed east. Sounded like a challenging survey to say the least from the conditions he described. It also goes on and has notes of the next 287 miles that was done in 1880.They even lost a crew member (Mr. O. Hopkins) and found nothing of him but his coat and horse some where near mile75! I don't recall where I obtained this from, but it is an interesting read.

The second book on it is titled "Wyoming-Montana Border They Followed the 45th 1879-1880, and is authored by Bruce H. Blevins. He referes to the unfortunate Mr. Hopkins, and it reports "he must haven fallen down one of the numerous horrible canyons which are notorious in that region. No sign of him was found despite a vigorous search along the streams and on the lower elevation." Mr. Blevins surmises that an encounter with a grizzly or mountain lion are other possibilities. Mr. Blevins book is also a very interesting read


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 5:32 pm
RADAR
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Isn't there a kink at every section corner and 1/4 corner along every state line in the country?

?ÿ

here's a better question; Who cares!?

?ÿ


 
Posted : April 14, 2021 5:44 pm

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