I know you all have had this happen before. Sometimes, it's just a pain to deal with, but who knows?
I am almost done with my survey and setting the last three pins about 45 minutes before dark with one more setup to go, and I am in full gallop. Here comes Mr. Neighbor in his golf cart with some questions about my corners I just set.
* The tax map shows my line over here. You have it over there. Why?
* The county ought to GPS every corner. Then everybody would know where their corners are and the surveyors won't be moving the lines.
* Why is this piece of land way over there?
* I drained the beaver ponds and cleared to the fence. I did not know my neighbor put up a fence on dry land on his side of the line. What am I gonna do?
* I took a bulldozer and cleared all the trees out. Did you find my corners?
* How accurate is that thing? (referring to my 5" total station)
* Is it (my total station) as good as GPS? (I used both)
* I built a driveway, and now it is on my neighbor (built without benefit of a survey). What am I gonna do?
After I started trying to answer a question, he would interrupt and ask another one. He wasn't really hearing my answer, just venting a little. I was getting nowhere.
I gave up, told him I would stop by when I finished, and went back to work, moving on to my last setup point. I did stop by his house after dark and review the maps and deeds that I had. I even had his deed, and he made a copy of it. I had made a margin sketch of the deed boundary on the deed itself, and read through the calls with him. After he saw that I had used his deed in my survey boundary determination, compared his deed with my clients' deed and the adjoiner deeds, totaled up the deed footage across a half a mile of land with seven deed parcels, he seemed satisfied that I had been thorough. He still could not believe that the lines were that far off. He had been there for many years, and none of his neighbors had done any survey work for over 50 years. The "stakes" set called for in some of the old deeds were probably made of wood and were long gone. I spent nearly an hour with him. The outcome: I had considered his deed, done accurate work, looked diligently for all relative existing monumentation, located occupation and fence lines, and ran the whole quarter section line in addition to tying in to two section corners and two quarter corners. Hopefully, I have convinced him that I do know what I am doing and have probably picked up a boundary survey to do for him.
I am a solo guy, and own my company. I answer to no one but myself for the time spent on surveys and trying to educate my clients and neighbors. Sometimes it pays off, but it does take a lot of time!:-/
I would like to read comments on how to handle inquisitive neighbors and how much effort to put forth in educating them about surveying.
They all (adjoiners) question our work. Some of them are inquisitive enough to ask, and I applaud them. It's the ones that don't come out until you've driven off that do the most damage.
It's difficult to give a layman's explanation of our profession in a short period of time. I try to explain to them my professional indifference to who is writing the check. If I can convince folks that I'm truly seeking an equitable and harmonious union between deed and stake I've almost made it.
With some folks I've spent a lot of time explaining my research and procedure. Some folks are best left alone with a reminder that they too can hire a surveyor. Reading people quickly is probably the key. Sometimes it's worth spending the extra time, sometimes you're talking to a stump. After 40 years I still have trouble figuring it out.
> Reading people quickly is probably the key. Sometimes it's worth spending the extra time, sometimes you're talking to a stump.
That is the essential problem in a nutshell: figuring out who has only a lizard brain to understand whatever you say and who is actually rational.
Well done Harold, well done.
That is one of the benefits of working for yourself, answering to no one but yourself has it perks.
:good:
Good job. It's sometimes tough to evaluate how much time to spend talking/educating the abutters. It sounds like you definitely handled it well. And it's especially tough sometimes, when like you were, you're fighting the clock or darkness, to complete a job, so you don't have to return the next day.
Some people are reasonable and appreciate your time, and some will waste as much of your time as you allow, talking about the job, or telling you where the "real" corner is, or about their relatives, ancestors, or anything else.
I generally give someone 10 minutes to talk about whatever they like, and then I find a way to cut it off politely, and get back to work.
You handled it exactly the same as I have and will continue to do. If it doesn't result in a survey of his job, more than likely he will tell a friend that you are a stand up guy and you will get work that way as well. But as others have said, sometimes you just have to be able to read people. Some just aren't worth the time, but always be friendly. You can always talk about what jerks they are on a surveying message board. Consider the time spent as marketing.
Always let them vent, a few questions after they slow down will soon show whether it is worth spending more time with them. Then you choose.
jud
Wear camouflage when working.... When you see the neighbor or the golf cart hit the ground immediately and crawl into the brush....fast!....and keep crawling until you out flank his position and he's lost view of your whereabouts .... When the coast is clear make your run for the truck and get the hell outa there...
Seriously that is what I would have preferred to have done with a couple "neighbors" I know of...
It sounds like you handled him well.
I always try to make contact with adjoiners before beginning work on a boundary survey. One, because it's required by law here in WV and Two, because they often have useful information. When they have a chance to express any concerns they may have, it makes them feel like they were an important part of the process and reduces the chance for conflict at the end.
:good:
Wear camouflage when working.... When you see the neighbor or the golf cart hit the ground immediately and crawl into the brush....fast!....and keep crawling until you out flank his position and he's lost view of your whereabouts ....
Hehe
I had a CLIENT that I would hide from, because if he caught up with me the whole day was shot.;-)
:good: :good:
:good: :good: :good:
Over 20 years ago I had a neighbor question my work over and over. Turned out he was right and I was wrong. Added numbers manually and misadded. Ten foot is a lot to be off on a 50-foot lot.
Beware the Board
Harold,
The following is a bit lengthy, but I ran into a whole lot of trouble back in the day when I used to talk to clients regarding what/why.
Will never forget the last time I got into a deep detailed discussion with a client explaining the controlling law as regards his particular boundary. The discussion drug on for so long I knew I would have to make a return trip to finish. But, that was the good part. The bad part is he insisted I go inside a neighbor's old established fence enclosure to set 2 of his corners. I refused and told him I would set monumentation at the enclosure intersection, and show the extent of possession/encroachment on the map. I told him I would only enter the enclosure for purposes of setting his monumentation upon advice of his or the neighbor's attorney, as I felt very strongly the possibility the area (the portion of his deed lying beyond the old fence line) had been possessed for a sufficient length of time to have effected a transfer of title by unwritten means. Before I went to do the survey we had agreed on a price of $500, however I could never complete the survey due to his insistence on my setting corners inside the neighbor's fence, and so I never billed him for my work. I did not take one penny from this fellow.
This guy was so ticked off he filed a complaint with the Board demanding they force me to complete the survey for the “$500 promised” (emphasis added).
A few weeks later the Board Investigator shows up at my office with a copy of the complaint, and demands a detailed written response. I had no idea the board was misinterpreting the complaint, and it did not dawn on me the Board was actually coming after me for their mistaken belief I had been paid the $500 after which they mistakenly believed I had simply refused to complete the survey. But, since the complaint never alleged I had been paid (the complaint used the words: for the $500 promised), and since I had not been paid it never occurred to me this was the actual reason the Board was pursuing me. So, in my written response to the Board I never mentioned about not having been paid anything, rather I detailed the long conversation regarding the controlling law etc., and the reasons I would not set the corners inside the fenced area unless asked to do so by an attorney.
In a few weeks I received a certified letter from the Board informing me the _______ ______ ______ had decided to bring charges against me for acting as an attorney. In (a certain state I will not name), once it gets to this stage, the expected thing is to appear before the Board with your attorney to receive your punishment. However, my attorney was having none of it, and he filed my answer denying all charges with the ____ County Circuit Court with a formal demand for full regular trial in the ____ County Circuit Court before a “real” Judge (I have a right to do so according to ________ law, and according to the words on the formal notification papers sent me by the Board). Nearly a full year went by and we had yet to receive any thing from the Board's attorney or from the Court. Then one day I receive another certified letter in the mail telling me the case was over and I was receiving a “Letter of Guidance”, all because I had taken the money without finishing the work. HUH? At this point I was so fed up I threw the letter down and proceeded to do my best to forget about it all. A couple of months later I accidentally came across my attorney, and he told me since it had been over a year the case would automatically be dropped by the Circuit Court, but that he was still waiting and expecting something from the Board's attorney. That was when I told him (I had assumed he got the letter too, I could never have imagined him not getting something...it never occurred to me I was the only one getting the information from the Board's attorney as they knew my attorney was representing me) I had already received a letter from the Board's attorney. Upon discovering the Board's attorney had deliberately left him out of the official legal loop my attorney threatened to seek Bar sanctions against their attorney. My attorney wrote the Board's attorney, and demanded that all negative information about me be thrown out of my file at the state Board office. A few weeks went by and my attorney and I went to the state Board office to demand to see my file. We were denied. Lastly, my attorney was unable to have the Board rescind the “Letter of Guidance”, and I was denied my due process of law, and I have to now live the rest of my life with the ignominy of my name forever tarnished in the online PSM database. I was entitled a right to trial, the Board refused, and I am irreparably harmed.
Bottom line. I will never so much as open my mouth again to explain why or how I do my work to another client. And, oh yes prior to talking about the law I did go through the mechanics of explaining that I am not an attorney. Although, the state PS exams expect you to have a knowledge of the law, and by completing the University of ________ Geomatics curriculum you're certainly going to have a knowledge of the law. However, obviously, the Board demands you keep your mouth shut regarding what you know or else you will have your license revoked. Maddening isn't it? But, that's the way it is in ________. Am I bitter? Oh yes! But I learned, and you will do well to remember this sad story. Any inferences as to which state are purely speculative.
Beware the Board
What a travesty.......
You had good, honest intentions. It would have been extremely difficult to have seen that one coming or even imagined that something like that would would have resulted in your actions.
Thanks for sharing and opening our eyes to what could happen.
Under the Freedom of Information Act, I believe that you ARE entitled to see what is in your file. There ought to be something you can do to remove the misleading information in your file. Or, at least, demand to file an additional piece of information alongside the bad one to justify/explain the situation.
Nothing will probably ever be said about the thousands of "attaboy" surveys you have done. It's your job. It only takes one "awsh*t" to tarnish an otherwise good reputation.
Beware the Board
Sorry to hear that. My old boss, in the State of FL, told me about 25-30 years ago, he got into an argument with a client and walked off the site, never getting a penny for the work he had done. Sometime later, a rep. for the BOR showed up with a complaint. They went back and forth about the facts, but when the boss mentioned he was never paid, the BOR rep. said, "well, that changes everything, the guy has no case", and left, never to be heard from again. It's too bad that false assumptions about payment where made in your case, and that that fact never got out.
