I am doing a foundation survey of a 100' x 150' and the lot next door has a fence that appears to be encroaching 2 1/2 foot on to the lot I am working on. This is a recent subdivision(2010) and I have located most of the irons in this subdivision, ran a loop with good closure and generally everything fits record within a tenth or two. I find irons at the front and rear lot corners and they fit the fence (2.5' west of calculated position). I check the records and we did not find these corners previously but they appear to be of the same character as the surrounding lots. I also check the lot corners on the other side of this lot and they are 2.5 east of position. I search the rest of the block and everything else fits record. Deed and Maps are all in agreement. I call the county and ask for the foundation survey of the adjoining lot and the survey shows no irons, but the dimensions appear to fit the fences. No mention of any discrepancy with record, no fences shown...no information other than some distances. So lets say these irons are original (which may or may not be true) but if they are..they are set in error and it is gross error (doesnt even come close to meeting state requirements) what to do? hold the irons and show record and measured? set irons at the record locations? I know what I will do but I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.
With the research and checks you have made I would be setting new monuments and in the narrative explain the results of your research and check measurements. Odds are the monuments are not in their original position, the rest of the work seems to be excellent and consistent. Gross error seems more unlikely than the intentional moving of monuments. All you can prove is that the evidence supports the assumption that the monuments are not in their original locations.
jud
I would definitely not stake a foundation on a property that didn't have proper corners. If the corners need to be set, set them. Note fence location anomolies and locations of bastard pins. Let the neighbors hash out the fence location.
Just 'cause you found 'em don't make you responsible for 'em.
> I know what I will do but I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.
Well, before setting new monuments which will send an accusation of fraud or deceit, I'd be talking with the lot owner to find out what they can tell you about the fences and the monuments. After that conversation you can decide whether or not your willing to step up and call them out as deceitful property thieves. They might take offense to being accused.
[sarcasm]But then it is easier to say those kinds of things behind peoples' backs by setting a rebar and telling your client that his neighbor is trying to steal his land.[/sarcasm]
JBS
If I read your post correctly, the neighbor's lot is marked 2.5' wider on each side for a total of 5'?
It would seem very odd that only one lot would be mis-monumented in such a way.
First I might contact the original surveyor and see if they have any records that may reflect those lines as having changed during the development process. There are some companies where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. I could see one crew having set corners. An office person not knowing they are set sends another crew out to set corners 2.5' each side of a design line for the final location. The second crew on site sees the pins sticking up assumes they are right and does not check them.
Then I would contact the neighbor and find out if they have ever had any surveying performed and what they may know about the corners of their property.
Finally make a decision based on all the information I could collect as to if my opinion is to hold or discount the found irons.
While 2.5' is a pretty big discrepancy, if they were set by the original surveyor in the incorrect position, they are the corner markers.
The big question is are the markers in the location that the original surveyor placed them (blunder or not).
If you decide they are not in the original location, it is time to explain to the neighbor the problem and why you do not think they are in the original location. I would avoid blame or accusations, and just point out that with all of the utility, road, surveying, construction, etc... going on in a subdivision pins will sometimes be knocked out and put back in incorrectly. Either they will be reasonable or not.
I would reset the corners accordingly without any hesitation . I would also give the surveyor a call prior to stirring up the world . He could have made a mistake and at the worst he would be replacing a section fence . Although in N.C. A survey is a survey , so if the foundation survey is substandard you may have a bigger duty .
I know in my area of NC the real estate agents were using the foundation surveys at closing and doing away with the final survey . the owner may have used it in good faith to build the fence. Did the other guy protect the public ?
Agree with some of the above. I would be talking to everyone that might be involved and find out what the story is/was. Something going on here.
as part of the field locations, we located the neighbors house corners and the side setbacks shown on his plat matches my computed locations within a few tenths. His other setback doesnt fit his own map by..you guessed it...5 feet. I did not have that calculated when I posted previously. I reset the irons at the computed location, I did not flag them or call attention to them till I talk to the surveyor who prepared this map.
While 2.5' is a pretty big discrepancy, if they were set by the original surveyor in the incorrect position, they are the corner markers.
:good:
Not always, requires more than blindly applying a rule to properly make that assumption.
jud
> Not always, requires more than blindly applying a rule to properly make that assumption.
> jud
I agree. I don't know all the details, but I think they might be construction offset stakes used to layout the foundation. I know that when I place offset stakes and show them to the contractor they become sacred and outlast anything on the job. Perhaps the guy built his fence to these stakes.
Just wild speculation
Ralph
> as part of the field locations, we located the neighbors house corners and the side setbacks shown on his plat matches my computed locations within a few tenths. His other setback doesnt fit his own map by..you guessed it...5 feet. I did not have that calculated when I posted previously. I reset the irons at the computed location, I did not flag them or call attention to them till I talk to the surveyor who prepared this map.
:good:
I sure would be scrapping the soil at the plat location to perhaps find the holes the mons were removed from. Can't tell you how many times I have proven original pipe/rebar type locations with just the hole left as witness.
True, I've been amazed at the few pins I've found off that much....
Seems like most people that move them are only brave enough to move
them about arms length, roughly 2.5'.....
The few brave ones I've seen, up to as much as 10' off!
Heck the last one I found was monumented less than 6 months before we
found it. Company owner called the surveyor that did that survey and
met on the site to look it over. Sure enough it was his previous client
that moved the pin, not an error on his part. The property owner even
admitted it with both of them there...
[sarcasm]Maybe the adjoining surveyor discovered the platting surveyor made a exterior boundary mistake and set the interior corners to "fix" the problem.[/sarcasm]
I am sure there are exceptions but most common folk are not going to move 4 pins accurately. If you find them precisely (or is it accurately) 2.50 feet off on all corners....chances are some surveyor did it.
Sounds like you fit the tract real well. If there wasn't a recut of that lot, verified by talking to owners and checking deeds, then the surveyor made an error.
Certainly, would not hold them as original if everything shows them as being 2.5' off.
See what the other surveyor has to say, he may be moving a fence, seen it before.
I would definitely contact the original surveyor. That would probably be my first move. Depending on what happened there, bring it to the attention of the lot owner and see how they want you to handle it. You could just set the proper corners, but they may not want that at this point until things are more clear.
Nobody sets 4 pins a consistent distance off by mistake. That was done for some reason. Sounds like you still need to dig a little more before you can make the right decision.
-V
Read Jeff Lucas's latest article in POB :-).
That may help.
Agreed. I think Jon Payne has laid down the proper way of handling this in his post. I just didn't want to copy his post over again.