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I would be 100% on-board with this.
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I would say that it could take the place of the LSIT. In order to proceed to full Professional Land Surveyor licensure, Cadastral plus one or two other certifications would be required before proceeding:
Heavy Civil Construction Certification
Light Civil Construction Certification
GIS Certification
Drafting Certification
General Cadastral Certification
PLSS Cadastral Certification (CFEDS?)
Survey Management Certification (MBA?)
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Something like that would go a long way in addressing the issues that are most raised in licensure and the professional nature of our work. All certifications would stand alone, but only the licensed would be considered a "professional" in terms of the legal definition.?ÿ
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I would love to see something like this implemented. It allows for evolution of licensing too, as technology changes are implemented.
And when something comparable to GNSS comes along, add a certification for it. Then require all current licensees to sit for that cert within a certain time window, or else their license is suspended...
I brought this up several years ago and was shot down by several of the "older" LSAW members...
Maybe it's time to revisit...
My town clerk told me she is investigating services that will scan and digitize land records before the town started using computers for new transfers. Supposedly these systems can not only digitize the records, but make sense of them.
I don't know what that will look like in detail, but I could imagine reading a deed from 1969 which says "recorded at page 150, volume 50, of the Castleton land records" and that would be hyperlinked to the relevant document.
If it got really sophisticated, I could click on a transfer from 2021 and ask the computer to list all the owners back to King George IIII.
Let me mention a more modest goal: when recording a document that has been digitally signed, don't throw away all the security information. I understand that many current systems reduce digitally signed documents to a plain image before recording.
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What really opened my eyes was working on heavy civil. They hired me because I was a PLS, and I was up front with my expertise.
Which brings me to the other aspect...I think we ought to work WITH the union on this one. LSAW creates the certifications and runs the necessary classes, with union support and open to union membership.?ÿ If that was possible, we might be able to leverage things into a workable system.
If you think there is a lack of qualified field and office personnel in cadastral, try finding someone that can do heavy civil. The lack of qualified workers means that the unqualified get hired (because there is no certification to ask for, and anyone can claim to be a journeyman surveyor). The end result is that our whole profession is tainted with the stink of the bad work.
And the older ones don't want to re-apply to do what they already do.
So, grandfather them. Like we did with the structural engineers and such.
With OCR, things are amazing...but I wonder how it would work with handwriting in what we call "cursive". Block letters are pretty much a slam dunk, from my experience.
I agree, 100%
Like anything else, there's going to be hours and hours and hours of committee meetings; plenty of gnashing of teeth; and lots and lots and lots of different opinions.
Just remember; success is going beyond the point of giving up...
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRoo5eytoLgrw9ukykZfaKXn1p_o-Rqrzi9Vg&usqp=CAU
I make two predictions here and now: 1. - using technology we haven't imagined yet, surveyors will have another means to set pincushions.
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2. Amazon will weasel in on the surveyor market.
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In some markets yes. That's why I moved West. Tired of seeing things stamped by folks who had no idea what the product was.
To be clear, I'm not saying the LS has to be the party chief, but that we cannot create a licensure system that splits the functions of field vs office. Licensure by discipline is all but inevitable. The model is already outlined and should be here before I retire. That's not too far in the future.
If realtors and certain poly ticians were involved, the land would be backed up, sent to China, surveyed, and returned in nice shipping boxes! 😉
N
It is fascinating to me that in my state (Washington), the torrens system was rejected by practical use. That type of system would be conducive to Amazon doing surveys, but our current system seems less likely to produce that end result.
I don't expect many here would agree with me, but as individual surveyors we have little control over the destiny of our profession.?ÿ Our profession exists to satisfy a need with a prescribed level of confidence.?ÿ That 'need' wasn't defined by surveyors.?ÿ The need was generated by public demand and then qualified by a legislative action.
And surveyors had some input in those actions, but were are far from "self governing".?ÿ Our most powerful tool is, you guessed it, our lobbying effort.?ÿ If an attempt was made to legislatively allow Amazon to perform land surveys it would probably happen.?ÿ
All we surveyors can control is the manner in which we perform our tasks.?ÿ And I would guess we have far less control than we might imagine.?ÿ If a law was passed making surveyors 100% liable for anything bad that might occur in a land conveyance, there would probably still be a few surveyors out there working just to make their equipment payments.
Licensing is a relatively new thing. The state of Oregon began licensing engineers in 1919, and surveyors in 1944. I've never seen anything specific about what drove those things to happen, and happen when they did. We weren't the first state to do so but were far from the last. There must have been a lobbying effort from someone, driven to it by something.?ÿ?ÿ
Some will defer payments to work cheaper. It's as if they come up with a number that will deplete all reserves in the shortest time possible, then cut it 5%.
To beat the equestrian carcass...
attention lowballers: STOP APOLOGIZING FOR MAKING MONEY?ÿ
Our relatively "new" licensing began in 1968 and 1969.?ÿ I was around surveying even back then.?ÿ From my recollection the origins of licensure in OK were contrary sentiments to engineers running the "show".
Up until 1968 the only sort of qualification one could publicly announce as to their surveying talents was being a registered engineer.?ÿ The only 'surveying' firms that existed were engineering firms.?ÿ Convincing the public that a lone 'surveyor' wasn't qualified to perform a boundary was easy.?ÿ From my experience the contrary was easily shown.?ÿ There were plenty of registered engineers that didn't know squat about surveying.
So up until that time the best a surveyor could hope for was to be a good employee at an engineering firm.?ÿ Enter the moonlighter.?ÿ Plenty of qualified and talented surveyors would usurp the 'food chain' and take on surveying work during off-hours while still working for an engineer.?ÿ As you could imagine this riled a few old crusty engineers.?ÿ You can steal a man's car or mess with his wife; but if you really want to make him mad take his wallet.
It took about five years to make it to fruition but the process was put in place to register surveyors through examination.?ÿ But of course we had the grandfather in everybody that was already working as a surveyor...meaning all the engineers.?ÿ You had to apply with three letters of endorsement, two of which had to be from engineers.?ÿ There were initially a little over 800 surveyors licensed under the grandfather clause.?ÿ Slowly surveying firms began to emerge.
If anybody remembers Danny Cahill from the Biggest Loser TV program, his father, Charlie Cahill, was one of the pioneers around here that broke ground for surveying 'only' firms to exist.?ÿ Into the '70s and even the '80s there was a sentiment that firms having no engineer were somehow crippled in their efforts.?ÿ Thankfully the industry has blossomed into a profession of its own.
My own licensure was delayed during this time.?ÿ I worked for an engineering firm and registered (grandfathered) surveyors were like tree frogs; all over the place if you just look.?ÿ All the engineers and half the party chiefs fell into that category.?ÿ I had no reason to attempt licensure.?ÿ It wouldn't mean any sort of advancement and my name surely wasn't going to show up on any surveys.
The "long established practice" statute that would allow me to sit for an exam required 5 years supervisory experience, which I had.?ÿ Then one January the statutes were changed requiring 9 years experience.?ÿ One day I was qualified for the exam and the next day I wasn't.?ÿ I took it personal.?ÿ I applied with 8 1/2 years experience and was allowed to take the exam and passed.?ÿ
Still didn't get that raise.?ÿ?ÿ
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@paden-cash I don't believe anyone can state this any more accurate than you just have.?ÿ Not saying that you stated it "better" because it is an unfortunate truth that all land surveyors will eventually come to realize and I don't want this to be "better".?ÿ The need of the many performed by the few.
At some point all new surveys will be on SPC, GIS will reliably include them, phones will have accurate GNSS and drones with AI will make drawings. There will still be a need for a few surveyors.?ÿ
When will that be, or is that too sensitive a topic?
2. Amazon will weasel in on the surveyor market.
The last 50 year's have taken us from:
Transit, tape, and clinometer
Transit / theodolite top mount EDM
Manual angle reading theodolite, and digital EDM where you have to key in slope angle, combined with slope distance, to obtain horizontal distance.
Fully electronic battery powered total stations. This led to data collectors, that became affectionately called "electronic field books". SDR 22, and hp 48 were some of the first.
Then along came huge L-1 GPS units, that worked better when there were enough satellites in view. This was often at night.
Then REAL TIME gps came along, with an whole host of complexity, radios, wires, frequencies, and protocol.
Then, this expanded, to allow Russian Satelites, and, the game was on for real.?ÿ
Shots in moderate woods was allowed, if adequate time, and redundancy was allowed, to "eliminate bad fixes".
Now a days, we have
USA satellites, Russian satellites, European satellites, and Chinese or Asian satellites. This is just for navigation, and positioning.
I have lived through these transitions.
Where are we going?
I think we are going to nearly full cellular coverage, in developed countries. Along with more satellites, and more satellites. Also, lidar is on some cell phones.?ÿ
I think someday, we will have GPS and Lidar fully integrated, on practically all gps.?ÿ
I think we will have better sonar, that can scan lake, and river bottoms, with ease.
The whole world will be better understood, concerning flood plains, and BFE's.
Politicians will still be lying, and surveyors will have to understand projections, scale factors, and converging angles better.?ÿ
Those who ignore progress, will get passed by.
Drones will become as common place as data collectors, and prism poles.?ÿ
Clients will want deliverables, with aerial photography taken on the day, or week of the survey. Lidar and digital terrain models will be expected, in conjunction with the survey. Most surveys will be expected in electronic format, for integration with project goals.
But, the one thing that won't change is the hunger for a good bowl of hot beans and cornbread, or a steak, at the end of a long day.
We are at the end of a long era of change/progress.
And
We are at the beginning of a new era, where every deed is available, to the surveyor, that could possibly affect a boundary decision. Online, and readily available, to lawyers, and realtors too.?ÿ
Plats will be all online. Non recording states, will eventually become recording states.
We will still be setting corners, driving rebar, pipes, and stobs.?ÿ
Everything that can be known, about a particular piece of property will be known.
For example, you will be driving across a field, and your alarm will go off, saying "stuck vehicle alert, mud bogg ahead, turn 90 degrees left".
When you price a survey, you will be able to look at a color coded map, with "get stuck areas in red" etc.
The information age is upon us, and we will be expected to provide/integrate it, for the benefit/use of our clients. We will have to know expected uses, and liability could come from failure to anticipate.
In 20 years, many things that are gas powered, will be electric. Not by law, but because they work better. Perhaps battery powered utv's and mowers. These are here now, but not common place. These will be more common place.
An understanding of all these technologies will be needed, and put to use.
And, folks will still fight, but the format, and media for the fight will be different.
Good data will be known and recognised almost immediately, as will bad data. It won't take 20 years to be "discovered".
Weather prediction will improve, but not by a huge margin.?ÿ
Dogs still won't settle for "the internet". They will want a good walk. Where they can smell stuff, and pee.
Virtual walks won't cut it with dogs. Humans will still go "to the gym". Maybe even more.
But, that's enough speculation, for today.
I hope you enjoy the "brave new world" of today.
Nate
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Technology is great. My only issue with technology is coupling it with a profession that is essentially an apprentice, journeyman, master trade.
Technology has made it easier for a company to cut costs by reducing crew sizes. One man crews create a disconnect. A robot cannot train future generations of surveyors. It creates an institutional gap in our industry. We have created a business that relies on button pushers with no real knowledge of what they are doing.
...And we wonder why we are having a hard time replenishing our ranks.
