Law School courses for Surveyors: Legal Research, Torts, Civil Procedure, Constitution. That's a pretty broad spectrum for practice.
"My idea is to require a degree, but any degree would sufficient to meet the requirement. You could add some minimum LS specific courses in addition to the degree"
That is, you have eliminated the surveying degree.
Paul in PA
For those of you looking forward to less competition because of the dying off of old surveyors, don't forget the civil engineering groups will gladly step in and try to take over during a "shortage". They will tout their related experience and education as qualifying them to survey. As soon as they convince some congressmen to change the law to allow them to survey California will be flooded with 50,000+ new "surveyors".
It happened during the last recession when civil engineering work slacked off and many civil engineers registered prior to 1982 (the cut-off date for allowing C.E.'s to survey in California) realized, "Hey, I'm licensed to survey!" and horned in on the survey market and screwed things ups.
The best thing to happen here will be when all the pre-'82 civil engineers die off!
Paul in PA, post: 408957, member: 236 wrote: "My idea is to require a degree, but any degree would sufficient to meet the requirement. You could add some minimum LS specific courses in addition to the degree"
That is, you have eliminated the surveying degree.
Paul in PA
California has the number one surveying program. We have no degree requirement, none. We have none for PEs too. Requiring a degree is not a path to a successful program. All that does is suppress the profession which suppresses demand for the degree. Young people (if they are rational) entering college have a giant catalogue full of degree programs before them. Why would they pick surveying? A difficult four year engineering degree program, if they asked me I would say do Civil, more job opportunities. But to be fair, every Fresno grad gets sucked up by firms who wants those grads for their superior knowledge and credentials. We have one in our office and the kid is an OIT grad, they are a great asset to our organization.
If you want a robust degree program then you need a robust profession. If we have tons of high paying jobs (that don't disappear every time the economy hiccups) I guarantee you your programs will be full of eager students. Like anything some will choose the engineering programs because those lead to high paying prestigious engineering firm jobs. Others will go to the more liberal arts oriented programs and do different types of work. It's like the difference between Harvard Law and the local unaccredited night law school. The one we have here is only accepted by California and you won't be working for a Wall Street Law firm.
Monte, post: 408896, member: 11913 wrote: we barely have old surveyors mentor young guys any longer, and so many skills, tips, tricks, and other old ways are being lost, replaced by ....
RPLStoday.com
I tell you what. I came up before the internet was a thing. And whatever mentoring I got out of my various employers in those days - with one exception - I had to pry out of them. There is more mentoring available to new guys today on Youtube and this board than there has ever been available before.
Mark Mayer, post: 408964, member: 424 wrote: RPLStoday.com
I tell you what. I came up before the internet was a thing. And whatever mentoring I got out of my various employers in those days - with one exception - I had to pry out of them. There is more mentoring available to new guys today on Youtube and this board than there has ever been available before.
YouTube is the greatest handyman resource on the planet. I diagnosed and fixed my old gas dryer, never would've figured it out before YouTube. Found a video, it shows how to make a router jig to make perfect dados for plywood which is 1/32 or 1/16 short of nominal thickness. Just use a cheap straight bit, no need to find a plywood bit.
Warren Smith, post: 408956, member: 9900 wrote: Law School courses for Surveyors: Legal Research, Torts, Civil Procedure, Constitution. That's a pretty broad spectrum for practice.
I would add contracts...the boundaries we Survey have their foundation in contracts.
Paul in PA, post: 408944, member: 236 wrote: ...I assert that the license pool is tilted due to the many experience only surveyors that over the past 20 years, took, and retook and retook until they passed the survey exam that was meant for well educated candidates. I would give them a starting age of 45, not too far off the current average. It is hard to determine the pool of that type of candidates remaining...
Paul in PA
I wouldn't accept that assertion without some evidence. The cycle I took the nationals there were 7 candidates at the site. I knew 3 of them. The only one without a degree was yours truly, and I was the only one to pass all tests. After that I took my one and only college math course. I have now passed the exams in 4 States on the first try. The 3 that gave scores were all in the 90's. I think of myself as a good Surveyor (don't we all) but I know I'm just not that special.
I track statistics in numerous States. The trend that is alarming is the number of new students at our university and the SIT candidates compared to years past. While the market will create a demand, the time required to respond with proficient Licensees will be a problem.
BushAxe, post: 408928, member: 11897 wrote: Not knowing your rear end from a hole in the ground is not half as bad as Not Knowing that you Don't Know your rear end from a hole in the ground. I believe those are the most dangerous individuals out there.
An old friend and well known mining attorney once told me;
"An EXPERT is someone who knows enough about a given subject, to realize how much he doesn't know about it."
Loyal
I guess I will have to wait for the LaLaPLSLand movie.
Paul in PA
I don't think a degree requirement is unreasonable, but I do think that there should be alternate paths. For instance, you could base the amount of experience required on the education level, and you could recognize college course work regardless of whether a degree was obtained. Here in LA, you have to have a four year degree and at least 30 credit hours in accepted survey course work; this has prevented people who would be good surveyors from getting licensed, and has even caused people to leave the profession because they couldn't or wouldn't go get a degree. For my part, I'm at an age where there's not enough benefit to getting licensed to justify what it would take, in terms of both time and cost, to get a four year degree. If there was an alternate path available, I'd be getting licensed ASAP.
We have a NCEES Top 10 program here, at Nicholls State University; my son is a junior in the program, and I've had close ties to it for 12 years. It's a great program, but very rigorous, and they are having a very difficult time recruiting and retaining enough students to keep it going. Too many kids either see it as too difficult and switch majors to something easier, or see it as too close to an engineering degree and so switch to Civil. And I won't go back up and quote the comment about being better off with a degree in Civil, but down here that is not the case. We have more than enough engineering graduates; the kids coming out of NSU are getting snapped up as fast as they can produce them. They also have an outstanding percentage of their grads passing the FS and getting licensed, some at relatively young ages.
Because of the small numbers of people getting licensed and the much higher numbers of surveyors retiring (or being "retired" by Mother Nature) we are already having to push back against the engineers, who are lobbying hard for getting a survey stamp along with their PE. It was like that here prior to the implementation of continuing ed. and the degree requirement, and I would venture to say that the quality of surveying in Louisiana has gone way up since those changes were made. But I don't believe that a strict four year degree requirement is doing anyone any good. A proper apprenticeship can and has produce a good surveyor every bit as well as a school can.
" A proper apprenticeship can and has produce a good surveyor every bit as well as a school can. "
You will not see an engineering grad even thinking about an apprenticeship program.
Perfect math is good enough for them.
Paul in PA
I'm not talking about engineers, the conversation is about surveyors. I referenced engineers from the standpoint that they are lobbying to be licensed solely on the basis of having their PE, if that's what you're referring to then I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Lee D, post: 408982, member: 7971 wrote: engineers, who are lobbying hard for getting a survey stamp along with their PE.
Let them stamp any kind of surveying except boundary, if your state requires a stamp for those types..
Require a considerable amount of boundary law training for a boundary license, but not necessarily a degree in anything.
Unlike some surveyors I have met I was not awarded the "Arpenteur Sans Comparaison" license some feel they possess. Licensure is a minimum requirement to operate as a professional, not the Nobel Peace Prize. Younger surveyors do not possess the experience older surveyors draw from. We have in the past and should in the future rely upon our experience in specific situations.
I knew a young man that worked diligently toward his license and was successful. After a couple of years a co-worker of his also attempted to qualify for examination. It was hilarious to see his one-eighty in attitude. Before his licensure he was humble about his experience. When it appeared as though someone else in the same organization might attempt the same, this young surveyor was extremely vocal about his younger understudy's ability. When I asked him how sure he was the younger co-worker wasn't qualified he said he felt he was 100% unqualified.
My reply was "Then there should be no harm in his attempting and failing the exam." This young man's reply was, "But what if he passes?" I then told him the co-worker would become a surveyor and his opinion of the examinee's abilities would have been wrong.
Point being there will always be younger and less experienced surveyors. Arguing against younger and less experienced surveyors "gobbling up the work" is probably why a lot of the general public view us as a service industry and not professionals. As Professional Engineers are now required to establish disciplines for their specific abilities; I see it probably necessary for surveyors to follow suit if we are to remain a profession and not a service industry.
paden cash, post: 408931, member: 20 wrote: still call me for advice. I don't think that use to happen much forty years ago.
40 years ago, they would've needed to put a quarter in a payphone...
I think Mark addressed it best;
Mark Mayer, post: 408964, member: 424 wrote: RPLStoday.com
I tell you what. I came up before the internet was a thing. And whatever mentoring I got out of my various employers in those days - with one exception - I had to pry out of them. There is more mentoring available to new guys today on Youtube and this board than there has ever been available before.
Lee D, post: 408985, member: 7971 wrote: I'm not talking about engineers, the conversation is about surveyors. I referenced engineers from the standpoint that they are lobbying to be licensed solely on the basis of having their PE, if that's what you're referring to then I wholeheartedly agree with you.
Engineers have been one main reason every Surveyor in the USA has had to tighten their belt and commit to their State Surveyor Association and draw a line in the sand.
Most of them have yet to understand that their extensive training to become an Engineer does not qualify them to be boundary surveyors.
They outnumber Surveyors in mass quantities and their lobby has cornered many law makers to make it easier for them to become licensed Surveyors than it is for every other human on the planet.
In the last 10yrs I have had people with Bachelor Degrees in Finance, Accounting, Business and Literary Studies to come to work for me and expect to be licensed within 6 months time and running their own companies.
They all claim to have read that in the TBPLS guidelines.
Believe me, they have a bad case of tunnel vision and were dreaming to actually believe it possible.
A Harris, post: 409021, member: 81 wrote: Engineers have been one main reason every Surveyor in the USA has had to tighten their belt and commit to their State Surveyor Association and draw a line in the sand.
Most of them have yet to understand that their extensive training to become an Engineer does not qualify them to be boundary surveyors.
They outnumber Surveyors in mass quantities and their lobby has cornered many law makers to make it easier for them to become licensed Surveyors than it is for every other human on the planet.
In the last 10yrs I have had people with Bachelor Degrees in Finance, Accounting, Business and Literary Studies to come to work for me and expect to be licensed within 6 months time and running their own companies.
They all claim to have read that in the TBPLS guidelines.
Believe me, they have a bad case of tunnel vision and were dreaming to actually believe it possible.
A full day of cutting line is a reliably good remedy for that. At least, it's worked for me more times than not.
The mentoring is definitely an issue. My company isn't just me, but I work solo. However it's hard to me to slow down to teach bc we are so darn busy. So I am part of the problem. I wish I could. But I'm not great at it and it's tough to find the time.
I'm 33. I could be one of the youngest licensed out there.
Think about this, in NY you need AT LEAST 8 years experience which only can be counted starting at 18 years of age.
Then applying (which takes months) then 3 exams... (which used to be given each 6 months)
So even if someone racks up the experience, applies and hears back right away.... and passes all on the first go.... your still looking at around 28 they can be licensed. Which is almost impossible. I'd say closer to 30 or 31.... so an early to mid 50s average age doesn't seem that out of whack.
Rich., post: 409045, member: 10450 wrote: .. so an early to mid 50s average age doesn't seem that out of whack.
Another thing to consider is that people are living, and therefore often working, longer. When I was a kid retiring at 65 and kicking the bucket by 70 was very average. Now the average age at death is closer to 80. Not many surveyors can get the scratch together to live off their savings (plus SS) for 15 years or more.
